Do great players make great coaches?
Post categories: Rugby
| 11:53 UK time, Friday, 1 December 2006
Inevitably from the England coach's job has been virtually the only story in the rugby world this week.
The feeding frenzy for responses to fill the 24-hour, multi-media news outlets of the day leads equally inevitably to some wide-ranging views on what is now best for English rugby if it is to ever climb back to that vaunted position it occupied just three years ago.
One of the most controversial came from everybody's favourite chirpy, World Cup winning scrum-half/ TV chef/Q of S captain/dancer/Five Live pundit Matt Dawson who warned that England's remaining coaches John Wells, Brian Ashton and Mike Ford lacked the medals and experience as players to lead England back to the top of the .
This has picked at an old sore - do great players make great coaches and leaders?
Some do of course. My own footballing hero went from European Cup winning player to manager, an achievement matched at Barcelona now by his fellow Dutchman .
But Rijkaard's old friend Jose Mourinho leads the opposite camp of proven top-class coaches and managers who left barely a footprint on their sport as players.
In rugby union, many have been quick to point out that the two men currently guiding the all-conquering All Blacks Graham Henry and Steve Hansen made little impression on the game till taking to the blackboard and coaching paddock.
Many years ago I spent most Saturdays watching my uncle Ray play professional rugby league for rivalled the Arctic Circle as Earth's coldest spot.
In the same side was a tall, stylish centre who was occasionally derided by his own fans as "not being able to tackle one of my Mam's dinners."
That centre was , who may not have endeared himself to fans as the greatest tackler, but who would become a great coach of defence in League and, of course, the man who fashioned the rearguard of the .
Ironically my uncle later coached , England's present defence coach when he was a slip of a lad and a superb attacking scrum-half.
An old adage goes that: "Those that can do, while those that can't teach". (In TV it has been translated to: "Those that can direct while those that can't edit - and write blogs!")
And in sport, contrary to what the souffle shuffling Mr Dawson says, there have been many examples of ordinary players achieving extraordinary things as leaders and teachers of other more talented individuals.
Mind you I'd still like to see what might do as the next manager of England....
***A number of people wrote to us to complain about the lack of the before the game last Saturday.
It was indeed a shame - even more so for the 80,000 fans in the stadium. It wasn't something we had any control over - in fact we only heard about the row betwen the Welsh and New Zealand authorities an hour before kick off and didn't know whether it would happen or not until it didn't - if that doesn't sound too daft.
The WRU though do deserve praise for the thought and effort they have put in to big match build-up in the Millennium stadium.
Last Saturday Katherine Jenkins and the choir were joined by a huge prize Welsh black bull - fortunately his minder with the stun dart was not needed despite the multitude of RED shirts all around.
For the Six Nations there will be another trick, with each of the four Welsh regions putting together rookie choirs to battle for the right to sing ahead of the Wales v England game. The progress of each choir will be followed for an X-Factor-style programme.
***This week we have live EDF Energy Anglo-Welsh Cup action with on Saturday for a place in the semi-finals (±«Óãtv 1, 2.30 KO).
Ahead of that watch out for coverage of the first of this year's IRB World Sevens from Dubai where .
We have highlights in both - and live coverage of the semi-finals and finals live via the red button on Interactive on Saturday afternoon.
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Lawrence Dallaglio is quoted as saying that Martin Johnnson is an intelligent man and wouldn't want to tarnish his reputation by becoming England Head Coach.
Well, you don't have to be intelligent to see that.
When Andy Robinson became England Coach, he didn't have that choice. Andy Robinson is an incredibly unlucky guy, coming on board after the World Cup with many key players retiring from International Rugby.
You need to have a synergy amongst a group of world class players playing together over a period of time to produce the kind of displays we had in 2002,2003.
I do not believe that anyone selected as manager could have sustained the same quality of performance from England after the World Cup.
The simple truth is that we haven't adequately replaced the likes of Martin Johnson, Dallaglio, Neil Back, Johnny Wilkinson, Richard Hill and Jason Robinson at their best.
We lack the thread of experience and world class talent that used to run through the whole team.
I think we have to accept that we have had our day for the moment, and start to build the platform for a future world beating team (which in hindsight, is what we should have done from the end of November 2003).
Why do you think the RFU will not replace Andy Robinson before the beginning of the 6 Nations?
So they won't have to sack anybody else before the World Cup.
We are almost certainly going to bomb in the 6 Nations and that will open the door for somebody to take up the Head Coach job without the pressure of having to win any tournament the minute he/she steps in to the position.
The expectation of delivering at the World Cup will be completely erased and finally and collectively, we will all in the Rugby loving community, be 'building a team and planning for the future'.
It has to be said that when the chips were down in a very bleak period for English Rugby, Andy Robinson performed as the Head Coach of England Rugby in the same way as he played, with great courage in adversity. Respect.
John Savage makes some relevant points. However, a good coach gets the best out of his players and that simply has not happened. England have made so many basic errors that have not been resolved over a period of two years. I think it was Jack Nicholson who famously said "it's funny the harder I practice the luckier I get". Clearly the loss of great players such as Martin Johnson and Neil Back severely affected English rugby's capacity. However, this does not excuse the poor performances over the past 24 months. Just look at what happened when Matt Williams was replaced by Frank Hadden in Scotland. A great coach can get players to achieve great things. The players themsleves have to shoulder some of the responsibility as does the CEO of English Rugby. However, in the final analysis Robinson just was not up to the job as head coach. What is now required is strong leadership and everybody involved must focus on the future, let's face it there can only be an improvement.
I find it hard to believe that people still do not realise that good players need not make good coaches.
In the commercial world many mistakes have been made by promoting the best salesmen to management positions. Both fields of activity in the enterprise lose !! Its excellent sales potential is lost whilst motivation and commitment is
eroded because of less than capable management. The two skills are completely different and the ability to excel at either is dependant upon completely different experience and skill sets.
I make this comment based on playing rugby at reasonably high level and also having been successful in the commercial environment.
The problem with england team was clear. There was never a person who was in charge of everything. There was never an authority guy. Robinson lacked leadership qualities. I still believe that he is a fine coach but he needs experienced, strong, tough people with him and unfortunately his coaching staff wasn't. The only way he tried to pose his authority was by fighting with the more experienced players! This was a major problem for england. They had already lost players through retirement and injuries and the few that were left were put out. England need a winning and brutal mentality. They need to believe in what they do and believe that they are the best. They need to feel excitment and proud in each and every game. Rugby isn't just played as a physical sport. Players need to be lion hearts. Anyone who saw New Z thrash england will see what I mean. Sure NZ had skill etc but they were always more hungry for a try, for a winnning tackle. They never feared getting badly bruised. England lacked this too. England need someone who will go back to the basics. Short quick passing, though scrums, powerfull runs. Thats how england won the World cup.They also had wilkinson who provided that class. If england find the right man and steer away from the high amount of injuries at current I still would totally say no to a repeat of another world cup.
I hate to make a contrast with football, but just becuase people have various qualifications, doesn't make them a good coach or leader; which is what he had under Woodward. Any suggestion that Johnson would take over is absurd! He has neither the qualifications or experience to take England forward, but maybe once he has these, he almost certainly has the leadership skills to get the best out of a squad of players.
Any good coach allows the players at their disposal to use their talents to the maximum of their ability. Since the World Cup the players chosen to play for England have seemed afraid to try anything different; they play less well for England than they do for their clubs; they try things for England that they wouldn't try for their clubs - like back row moves from their own 22 and when it goes wrong they try it again; finding touch has become anathema; quick passing is against their religion.
This can only be down to the coaching. Robinson tried and failed. He could not bring out the best in his players. He was the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was ALWAYS the wrong man, we just prayed who would mutate into the right man.
Belief that it is all about management is the English disease, and by no means only in rugby. The one type of worker England doesn't export is managers. Managers exist to allow workers to do their jobs to the very best of their ability, just like coaches. That is the task of whoever the next coach is, and to pray daily for the full recovery of Jonny Wilkinson.
It can't be Rob Andrew, because it would only distract him from cleansing the Augean stable that is the RFU. It is unlikely to be Richards or Johnston unless they are given carte blanche (something the blazers at Twickenham will never allow mere former players) The foreign names touted are hardly bedecked with top level honours. Frankly, I don't give a damn who it is so long as I can see England players coming off a field knowing that they have played to the maximum of their abilities and if they've been beaten it was by better players not because someone, somewhere else screwed up.
Why not give the job to Jonathan Davies and Jeremy Guscott, to see if they can put their money where their poisonous tongues are.
Two words - Graham Henry.
He was never a representative rugby player but look what he has done with the All Blacks.
A good example from rugby of a great coach, but who was not a great player, would be Carwyn James. He coached the Lions to victory in NZ in 1971, and the Barbarians against NZ in that 1973 epic, and I think his advice was behind the controversial 99-call at the lineout, on the 1974 tour to SA, though he was not a coach on that tour.
But I don't think he played more than a game or two for Wales (at fly-half, I believe).
Great players making great coaches has always been a good talking point and yet the evidence in most sports is the opposite. Ok there are the Cruyffs and the Rickaards but how many top players have failed at coaching/ management. My theory is about application. Great players tend to be 'naturals' Ask them how they do something and they probably cannot tell you. If you look at professional football and look at the legendary managers, most tend to have been good footballers who worked on their game e.g. Stein, Ferguson, Busby etc.. Murinho and McLaren may be a new breed (the appliance of science) Similar patterns of application have occured in other sports (Frank Dick in athletics)
A player has different skills than a coach. Some ex-players have the ability to pass on their insight and skills when they are coach, but that's not always the case.
What also seems to be very important is a good chemistry between team and coach. If there is no chemistry, the team will be head less or even worse heart less.
In a team therefore, it's not always necessary to have the best players. Sometimes less skilled players can fit better in a team. The coach is there to let them play their best as a team.
Re 10 above, that's extremely well said, Erwin.
England 2003 had a great manager AND a great captain, even though I am Irish and hated him! All great teams have both - see above Carwyn James/John Dawes/Willie John, Alec Ferguson/Robson/Cantona/Keane. At the moment England have neither. Neither manager above was anywhere near being a great player. England need to get to work on remedying both situations before they comeback.
Do great players make great TV presenters?
Do great players make great dancers? :)
But seriously, I think there's a world of a difference between a good personnel manager and an on the pitch leader.
If you can get your leadership team right, by which I mean someone leading on the pitch like Johnson, someone pointing the team in the right direction rugby-wise (a good coach) and someone competent ensuring that management never gets in the way of the first 2 guys then you're on the way to a successful rugby team.
On the other hand, I think England will make the mistake of appointing Dean Richards to the job.
i always believe that most good coach allows the players at their disposal to use their talents to the maximum of their ability.