What next for England after dismal loss?
Michael Vaughan described (I won't call it an effort) as unacceptable, but he was being polite. Actually, to slip to 77 for 9 was inept, and this was illustrated by the fact that Monty Panesar, the number 11, was then able to hang around quite comfortably for three quarters of an hour before defeat was sealed.
because there aren’t any to give. He disagreed with my view that England lacked energy throughout the game – but I will stick to my opinion. Something was lacking throughout, and I firmly believe that England took an early view that this was a slow, flat pitch – ‘a road’ – and once New Zealand’s batsmen made a good start, that the match would be a draw and they could move on to Wellington.
Vaughan did pay tribute to New Zealand’s tenacity – they kept coming at England throughout the game with bat and ball which only went to show what could be achieved with a more positive and bullish approach.
The question is what to do now? Steve Harmison’s position will certainly be reviewed not simply because he bowled badly, but in preferring other options, it seems that Vaughan does not trust him. Losing the new ball should have riled even the most gentle of giants, but Harmison does not appear to be driven in the way that other fast bowlers are.
As with all selectorial decisions, Harmison must be replaced only by a better option, and Stuart Broad and James Anderson will both come into consideration. Broad is only 21 and is very promising. He is tall, has reasonable pace – but is not fast – and does not yet do much with the ball so might be exposed on a flat, slow pitch. He would bring enthusiasm, better fielding and batting.
Anderson has been playing for Auckland without much success. He is very much of the same category as Matthew Hoggard and Ryan Sidebottom – if a little quicker – and so depends on swing. For that reason, if there is to be a change, I would opt for Broad.
Daniel Vettori had a brilliant game, and gave Panesar a beautiful example of what he must strive to become. Vettori’s variation can be up to as much as 15 miles per hour and no consecutive balls are the same.
Panesar had a decent game here, but has still yet to discover the confidence to add flight and guile to his repertoire.
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Surely, all we had to do was block, and play out the day for a draw(which would have been an anti-climax, after Sidebottom's hat-trick day, but better than a humiliating defeat) yet, too many of our batsmen were out playing an attacking shot.
Why ?
How can Monty hang around for over 40 minutes, and other, more able batsmen can't ?
The skipper ~ does he inspire and lead by example enough ?
And Harmison ~ I'd pack my bags if I were you.
Such a disappointment.
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After Day 2, one report from NZ stated 'England aren't fooling anyone'.
This is truer now than it was then. This was dismal cricket.
In Adelaide in 06, England were bowled out by the best attack in Tests - Warne, McGrath, Lee and Clark. Here they were bowled out be a good, honest, ordinary attack (Vettori aside, but he didn't get the wickets today).
This was PATHETIC.
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Good one Jon. Being optimistic is very good but I never understand how from talking about victory we end up losing it just in a matter of a session. Invariably we tend to expect a lot from Vaughan & co. By the way we put Peterson up in top with Ponting, Sachin & co. but never accept that he is still a long way.
A bad summer (loss to India) , loss in Sri Lanka, miserable ashes shows that we have yet to learn to be realistic in our expectation from Team England.
Looking forward to England winning the next one!!
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I don't understand why England collapsed like that. Watching and rewatching the dismissals, none of the deliveries seemed to move much, keep low, be particularly unlucky or excellent bits of bowling or fielding. Simply very poor batting. Really really poor. Playing down the wrong line, being caught in the crease, fishing outside off stump. Just a load of utter rubbish. I remember scorecards a bit like that in the 90s, but that was when Marshall and Ambrose were bowling, not Mills and Martin. It's truly pathetic and the worst I've ever seen England bat.
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Time for Vaughan to leave as captain and concentrate on his batting!
He was a good captain at first but he is starting to look out of sort's and the team batting and bowling wise is so out of form.
When will England start dropping players out of form, i.e. harmy, pieterson, bell
Simply not good enough
Good Article again aggers
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When a team so clearly underperforms the reasons are most likely that the wrong team is being selected, that there has been a loss of focus on basic skills, and that there are mental problems to do with lack of confidence. England demonstrate all three of these problems in abundance. So in answer to "What next for England?"
1. Sack Peter Moores at the end of the tour. A coach needs to demonstrate that his team his improving. In both attitude and even the most elementary of skills the team is degenerating. We need a proper coach, not someone who got the job because he was 'next cab off the rank'.
2. Select a team based on who is actually in form. Harmison should not be selected again until he clearly demonstrates at county level that he deserves to be selected. For the moment, I agree with Jonathan, Broad would be the best choice, but I'm not really convinced he's a long term option because he seems very predictable, and therefore easy to counteract. Strauss should not have been selected for this tour, but we'll have to stick with him now for the next two tests in the absence of any credible batting alternatives.
3. Change the captaincy. Vaughan has been very good, but his leadership has run its course. We need to select a captain who's going to shake up and toughen up the team, as Nasser Hussain did. To this end, Kevin Pietersen would be worth a try (remember that Hussain was considered an aloof and temperamental loner before he got the gig). It might actually help his batting and stop his tendency to fade out of the game in the field.
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With the honourable exceptions of (definitely) Sidebottom, (probably) Panesar and (possibly) Bell and Cook, the whole team played uselessly four days.
As an ardent England supporter it pains me to say it, but this is no longer a blip, and what we're in fact seeing is the cyclical downturn of England's fortunes.... We all thought that with Vaughan back and Moores' new regime in, the post 2005 slide would be halted, but it seems to be going on unabated.
Broad in for Harmison and Strauss out in favour of someone (not convinced by Shah yet), but beyond that I'm not sure where we go from here.
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Well, this must be the low point! How much worse must this team perform to convince themselves that relying on the reflected glory of the 2005 Ashes triumph is a pathetically complacent position? Forget the world rankings; they bear no relation to the current quality of England's performances. Since 2005, England's attitude against even moderate opposition belies a falsely optimistic opinion of their own abilities and a drastic inability to show respect for the professionalism of their opponents. We cannot just turn up and win!
They need to recapture the focus on doing basic things correctly; batting with a positive attitude, bowling as a unit and applying concerted pressure on the opposition. It just shows how much we miss players with the quality of Simon Jones; we do not have the strength in depth of sides like Australia and we don't have the kind of players that can take a test match and wrest control of it single handedly (despite KPs assessment of himself).
The only positive feature to come out of this Test was (apart from the effort of Ryan Sidebottom) that the fielding at least appears to be solid. I just hope that NZs excellent team effort demonstrates to Moores et al. that in order to succeed you need everyone to play their own part in the team and not as a bunch of prima donna egos. Oh, and while you're at it, ban all player interviews; they are all sending out the wrong messages, giving the opposition hope and cementing the false-headed, cliche-ridden platitudes that pass for much of England's 'thinking' these days.
I refuse to write us off though; we are a reasonable side at times and we have it in us to bounce back. It just annoys me that the management cannot see that the team is damaged psychologically and requires some strong leadership to take them out of the comfort zone that central contracts and lack of strength in depth have entrenched in the mindset. Australians don't assume they have a natural place in a side unless their performances justify it; and then they know that a slip up will not be tolerated. Time for this unit to mature a bit and stop acting like teenagers who believe the world owes them a living.
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This was embarrassing.
New Zealand are, at best, a reasonable county side, but they worked hard and played with passion and a plan.
England seem to be wrapped in cotton wool now between games/ series. They were not match fit especially the players not in the one day team.
They do not play enough and I cannot believe Micheal Vaughan suggesting that they will 'take a couple of days off now and train hard for one day' before the next test.
There is no replacement for hard work.
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England seem to make a habit of being awful at the start of a series, and finally coming to life when it's too late, and then talking about the "positives" they have taken with them.
I am fed up with hearing about "positives" whatever they are. I want to hear about success.
Moores and Vaughan seem to be completely unable to motivate this team, and surely will not select Harmison again as he is finished. Broad is there, young and keen. He is wasted on the benches whilst Harmison continously fails to perform.
Unfortunately the Test Team are suffering from the English attitude which generates losers.
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Aggers,
Commenting on Panesars failings at every opportunity is becoming boring and verging on an obsession. we know he is not perfect and needs to learn but you never seem to appriciate that he is the first spinner since Derek Underwood who consistantly takes wickets for England on a regular basis.3 for 50 in second innings is not bad.Cook, Edmunds,Embury, Tufnell rarely threatened apart from the odd occasion ot the windies loosing their heads. Yes he needs to learn but why not show a bit of support and confidence in him so he can develop.
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England handed the psychological initiative to NZ by the way they batted in the first innings - Australia always play to win irrespective of the apparent difficulty of the situation - England on the other hand especially under Vaughan are quick to give up on winning and play not to lose which too often results in a loss.
More concerning is the loss of energy throughout the team. In my opinion the Ashes win has given us a false view of Englands' capability and in particular Vaughan's captaincy of which this match seems to be far more representative - lacking imagination, energy or capability to motivate/inspire the potential match winners.
Congratulations to New Zealand and Daniel Vittori who showed what can be done with limited resources through good leadership which taps into the desire we all have to succeed. The English have shown they lack the courage of the Kiwis and the emotional toughness necessary for success.
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Don't tell me, don't tell me. We can take some positives out of this.
That Bell could survive more balls than the other top nine in the batting order put together says as much about their dismal display than his.
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Obviously the inquiry into the last Ashes debacle was a waste of time from which no-one learnt anything.
We have to get our priorities right, and the most important thing now is to immediately set up a new enquiry to find out what went wrong with the last enquiry.
We have to be confident that the next time we get obliterated on the field, there'll be a proper, wide-ranging, enquiry afterwards.
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same old saga, a middle order batting collapse.how many times have we seen this happen.
he may not be the best keeper but he can bat when needed in situations like this, and thats matt prior.
twice in sri lanka on very difficult wickets and against a very strong test side, not a medium strength
new zealand.england have always played the best keeper / batsman
and matt is still the best.
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I think English line up should look something like this, for the next match :
Cook
Vaughan (C)
Bell
Collingwood
Peiterson
Shah
Ambrose (wkt)
Hoggard
Sidebottom
Board
Panesar
Harmison (12th man - let him run with drinks onto the field !!)
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hello playmates,
oooooooooops lost again well never mind lets not do anything about it just carry on as nothing happened...................... oh yes i reckon were well on our way now to putting together a team to regain the ashes
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bring back Prior
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agree the aussie attack at adelaide was the best in the world but remember we had just caned them for 550 declared. there is a similarity to this defeat - england's approach to batting and scoring at 1-2 runs an over. the sri lanka captain was right, england are negative and vaughan must take a lot of the responsibility.
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how can a team of international players have such little desire to battle against the odds. they had the chance to be part of a fantastic comeback victory but look instead for inspiration from anybody else rather than themselves. the main men with the ball with 500 wickets between them wanted sidebottom and panesar to do it all, and if the skipper or kp fail with the bat the struggle begins. a few home truths need to be told to these comfortable also rans and get rid once and for all of hamless harmison, for a player to be 30 years of age with years of top level experience behind him to continually be in need of reassurance and technical help with his action is totally ametuerish and selfish.
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2 runs an over, about says it all vis-a-vis conviction, mindset etc.. I'd say let them get spanked in the next two tests, but that won't set of any alarm bells, so why put us through the pain..
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There is clearly an institutional failure in the England set-up at the moment which will not be resolved by minor tweaks such as dropping Harmison for Broad. Yes, Harmison was poor, no, he probably isn't in a fit state of mind to be selected, but his failure wasn't the difference between victory and defeat.
That was the utter capitulation of the top order yesterday. Vaughan said before the game that Strauss was recalled to bring some 'maturity' to the dressing room. There wasn't much of that on show on the part of any of the top six here. None of the six want for ability, so the failure is likely to have been mental.
My view is that Shah ought to have been given a chance in Sri Lanka and ought to have been preferred to Strauss for the first test here, but, as I said, minor shuffling will not address the deeper-rooted problems England have now.
Moores and Vaughan have talked about getting England out of their 'comfort zone', but the people with chief responsibility for getting England *into* that comfort zone are Moores and Vaughan, with their platitudinous rhetoric and apparent desire to rewind the clock back to the 2005 Ashes. I also have a strong suspicion that certain players are being selected and retained not on the basis of their ability, but on how congenial the captain or coach find their personality. Yes, it is important that the XI get on as people and function as a unit but the core of the England side appears at the moment to be operating as a narrow-minded clique, and one which is depressingly unresponsive to external criticism and incapable of performing under pressure.
The most distinguished performances at Hamilton - Sidebottom, Panesar, Cook (in the field) - came from players who have come in since 2005 and understand the privilege conveyed by an England cap and the expectations associated with it. All three are clearly working hard all the time to improve themselves and to excel on the big stage. By contrast, many of the Ashes 2005 men have retreated into contented mediocrity, sure of their places and sure that they fit in with the 'lads in the dressing room' who will no doubt be 'gutted' but are 'determined to put things right', etc etc.
There need to be changes at the top, in attitude if not in personnel, otherwise we might as well give up on the Ashes right now.
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Apart from the boxing, eh, Huw!
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Interesting article there Aggers.
I feel when I watch the England team these days, there is a certain yet unbelievable sense of arrogance rifled through the whole team. I feel England need to realise they are NOT world beaters and need to remove this sense of arrogance ( trying to emulate the Aussies )....
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why hasnt he mentioned the pathetic batting....vettori even managed to outdo the england team on that!
surely there is a place for Owais Shah in the team
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If New Zealand is at best a good County side then what does that make England? Good enough to beat Scotland I hope ... pity about the rugby guys! :-)
Face facts guys ... the last time you received a drubbing from NZ in Eng (1999) I heard the same excuses wheeled out ... face it your team is useless!!
Ciao and love always to the Mother Country!
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compared to the golden period 2004-5 england are a poorer side: cook is good but unable to dominate bowlers like trescothick; vaughan makes more errors and scores less heavily than he did; straus and (since his recent injury) hoggard are significantly poorer; as for harmison..Flemming said that in the series in England the difference between the sides had been harmison...it seems unimaginable now; flintoff is permanently injured or when plays seems to have lost the ability to reverse swing or compose an innings; monty takes more wickets but scores less runs than giles; whilst sidebottom has done well neither he nor the other seamers have the aggression or skill of simon jones. Collingwood and Bell have marginally improved since 2005 but do not frighten International bowlers and even Pieterson seems less intimidating. In addition there has been the disturbance of england being the only international side to go years without having a settled keeper. This match was a one off in terms of good catching but our outfielders are unathletic and less competent compared to 2004-5. As a professional psychologist my opinion is that England are losing because of competence not confidence.
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I cannot believe Michael Nee is suggesting Bell should be dropped. He is probably the best batsman England have and keeps on improving. England collapse but Bell remains not out and gets a half century and Mr Nee wants him to be dropped. On this basis I suppose we should be thinking of dropping Sidebottom! England need to bring in some new players and tell them they are in the team for say at least three tests come what may. I remember Dennis Amiss starting his test career off badly. He was told he had a couple of tests at least to make an impression and the rest was history. He became a very good test batsman. Cook just about deserves to stay in because of the catches he took. Sidebottom and Panesar should stay as should Ambrose despite his duck in the second innings. I would keep Hoggard in because he always gives 100% but as to the rest I would bother with any of them. This might be a little hard on Collingwood. He is a fighter but I am not sure whether he is a genuine Test player. The hard part is trying to find alternative players. Broad,Shah and other names which crop up do not fill me with any confidence.
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That was really tought to watch. Aggers, what in the last 12 months has convinced you that an England win was second to a draw, over and above a NZ win?
NZ were worthy winners, for no other reason than they earnt their wickets through pressure bowling.
It's sad to say this but England have absolutely no chance for the Ashes next year. 2005 was the culmination a prolonged period of good English cricket.
I think a lot of this is down to man-management. I watched the interview with Harmison and was frankly shocked. Mentally this guy has gone and should not be playing 1st class cricket for England. What I think has been overlooked is the impact such a personality can have on the rest of the side. The best sides in the world perform because they believe in the men around them. The second negativity creeps into a side it becomes endemic. Serious questions need to start being asked of Peter Moores and Michael Vaughan and the management of the England team.
Steve Harmison is on £250,000 a year and the interview he gave was nothing short of disgraceful. There are players around the world who would kill to be in the position he is in. He needs a reality check and should think about what playing for England really means to him. Not once did that guy give any indication he was thinking about the team or more importantly the words that his captain will have said to him at the beginning of this game.
A team has to believe in it's leader and the words that he says - can that really be said any more of Michael Vaughan and England?
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compared to the golden period 2004-5 england are a poorer side: cook is good but unable to dominate bowlers like trescothick; vaughan makes more errors and scores less heavily than he did; straus and (since his recent injury) hoggard are significantly poorer; as for harmison..Flemming said that in the series in England the difference between the sides had been harmison...it seems unimaginable now; flintoff is permanently injured or when plays seems to have lost the ability to reverse swing or compose an innings; monty takes more wickets but scores less runs than giles; whilst sidebottom has done well neither he nor the other seamers have the aggression or skill of simon jones. Collingwood and Bell have marginally improved since 2005 but do not frighten International bowlers and even Pieterson seems less intimidating. In addition there has been the disturbance of england being the only international side to go years without having a settled keeper. This match was a one off in terms of good catching but our outfielders are unathletic and less competent compared to 2004-5. As a professional psychologist my opinion is that England are losing because of competence not confidence.
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An absolutely unforgivable 'performance'. When will they ever learn - it's no good turning up a week or two before the first test, not enough time to get into form - especially Harmless; who needs a lot of bowling to get into form. 4 years ago England started the run which culminated in the Ashes - wins against WIndies, whitewashing NZ, an away win in SAfrica. At the moment they are miles away from that type of form.
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Just listened to Moores being interviewed on 5Live and he's just unbelievable - prattling on about taking "positives" from the game, and sounding confident that they can win the next 2.
This seems to me to show that the there is a worrying arrogance at the top - that we are better than the oppo, and that we "deserve" to win. Vaughan's outpourings over the last 9 months have sounded similar.
Wakey wakey!! We are playing rubbish, haven't beaten a decent side for ages now, and Moores and Vaughan appear totally incapable of motivating the team.
Sack Moores, Flowers (what has he contructed to our batting?!), sign up John Buchanan as coach, and sack Vaughan and make Colly Captain - at least he looks like he is interested in the job.
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Typical England. I get up in the morning and this greets me. Shameful I say.
The thing I dont like however is this theory people have and maybe the england players too, that NZ are a weak team or as one person put it a glorified county team. We should pay the opposition more respect, and they quite rightly deserved their win.
As for England, I think they need to simply concentrate on basics rather than trying to "intimidate" teams with their faux aggression.
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I find that the whole England team are steadily heading down the same road as our footballers - especially since the glory of our Ashes victory. The motivation for progress, improvement and glory on the world stage is secondary.
What was it that 'KP' said last week, in relation to the breakaway Indian league?
"It's not as if I need the money".
Speaks volumes about the remaining Ashes 'heroes' and perhaps why, as many journalists have noticed that certain players didn't prepare right and have shown a new level of lethargy in their performances. Especially in this match against a spirited New Zealand side which despite their belief and will to win, we should be beating comfortably.
I remember reading that Monty Panesar had signed a mutli-million pound book deal several months ago. When the rewards are that big for not acheiving particularly much in his short career, where is the incentive to become as good as a Daniel Vettori? There is none.
England's performances since 2005 have been systematic of 'professional' English sport of recent times.
Mediocrity is excellence.
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Why cannot I send Aggers' comments on to someone else ? This used to be possible so I hope you will reinstate
Please: what does URL stand for ?
Peter Relton.
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I don't know what game Ian smith was watching. I didn't see any attacking shots by the England batsmen that got them out. The only attacking shots played were by Bell toward the end of the innings and showed how it could have been done.
England were pathetic.
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I fail to understand since the Ashes 2005, Eng has produced only one new player - Sidebottom. This shows how poor is their bench strength. Also Eng is always living in the past. Flintoff,Simon Jones, Marcus are gone. Its high time that they forget the players that had represented Eng and look forward to replace them with quality players.
Look at other countries - India / Aus - they are always trying to get new players to replace the old. A captain has to trust the players.
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Matt (message 6) - A lot of people have jumped on the sack Peter Moores bandwagon. You all seem to regard cricket coaches as expendable, like football managers. Well, what do failing football clubs get who keep sacking their managers - more failure! I don't believe that cricket coaches tell batsmen to go out and waft unnecessarily outside off stump or shoulder arms to balls cutting back from outside off stump, or bowlers to bowl all over the shop at eight or nine miles per hour below their normal pace. The people you should be blaming are the players - and if you want a reason, take a look at today's Sunday Times newspaper, see
Mike (message 11) - I'm not here to defend Aggers or to try and interpret the points you make. However, there appear to be a lot of people who take objection to any comment he makes about Monty which does not amount to unqualified praise. You ask Aggers to show a bit for support for Monty, but surely advising him constructively to watch how Vettori does it is supporting him...if he can add variations of pace to his armoury, he'll be an even better bowler than he is now.
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It is time the England set - up realistically assess themselves. The players are accused of under performing, perhaps certain players are unable to perform to a higher standard? Therefore a clear out of players is due. But who do you bring in? The selectors do not appear to have a long term policy and often seem unsure to give young players aa chance to prove themselves or indeed do not have faith in certain players. Both Anderson and Harmison are not good enough to play at the highest level, they both lack the consistency needed. Anderson has bowled awfully recently but people say he is unfortunate but he is bowling is
very poor. There appears to be a lack of enthusiasim within the England team and a reluctance to play for five days. Peter Moores is now the master of the banal, his statements are pathetic and if that is the way he is dealing with the England team the decline may continue. England according to the ECB are a young team still learning but this has been a consisitent excuse delivered for the last three years. Moores also thinks that once Flintoff is back England will be a force. Lets be honest, aside from 2005 Flintoff was not regarded as the best all rounder in the game. In reality Flintoff will not play for England test side again as his ankle will not stand the rigour of five days so where is the planning as Austrailia await in 2009
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england have been embarrassing since peter moores took over as coach.they are a disgrace peter moores must go. duncan fletcher did a better job. who ever appointed moores should resign also. the players have no bottle they should be ashamed of them selves but i suppose they still get there pay packet hardly deserved.i suggest the england players keep there mouths shut and play cricket.
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Great article Aggers,
Could you imagine what would have happened if Shane Bond, Scott Styris Lou Vincent, and Hamish Marshall played?
These players are better than Jamie How, Matthew Bell, Chris Martin and Matthew Sinclair included in the current squad.
England could not beat a weakened New Zealand team and is a cause for concern. If anything this game proved that enthusiasm, discipline, a game plan (that is stuck to) and honesty of effort (mixed in with three class players i.e. Vettori, Fleming and Taylor)can win you a game of cricket. And this is something the English team (at this moment in time) does not possess.
Unfortunately, Harmison does not appear to have the character to compete at a test match standard and should make way for Broad. Hoggard should also be placed on notice. Other than that an increased energy level from all players is required. If the energy levels are matched than England's superior class will shine through.
Congratluations to Ian Bell and Ryan Sidebottom who I believe enhanced their reputations in this test match. I understand Ian Bell comes under a lot of criticism in England for his performances but I believe him to be a class player and even a future vice-captain candidate.
But as an Aussie, seeing England lose both the cricket and the rugby in the same weekend will give me a good Monday morning at work!
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Just a woeful, woeful performance that lacked just about everything.
Have to say well done to Sidebottom, as a Notts man I was delighted for him to get 10 wickets and his hat-trick. Credit to Bell too, for showing that if you played sensibly you could get a decent score. With a damaged hand too...
I'm not sure that changing the captain will make that much difference. In 2003 Nasser Hussain stepped aside because Vaughan was doing so well with the one day side. It's not like that now, there isn't a stand out candidate to take it on if Vaughan was replaced.
I think Moores must now come under real pressure. England have won just 3 out of 18 tests since November 2006, all of which were against the Windies last summer. Granted, that includes the 5-0 Ashes defeat, but it still doesn't look good. They look like a side that hasn't won in their last 7 games.
The team have become cynical, believing that if they turn up and play at 70-80% then they'll win. What happened to the never say die attitude of 2004-5, when England pushed until teams buckled? I know Fletcher probably stayed around too long but at least under him we fought to the end and won games...
Oh one more thing, have we ever recovered from losing Troy Cooley?
Roll on Wednesday, things can only get better.
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England are now back where they were in the pre-Fletcher days. There is an air of "Here we go again" whenever things get tough. The only way to sort this out is to look at the County players and find the players who can turn things round when the going gets tough. They might not be as talented as some of the contracted players but making the most of their talent is more important in a team lacking heart. What England needs is players like Atherton, Willey and Fraser.
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"New Zealand are, at best, a reasonable county side"- Paul Avery... you're having a laugh mate. Supporters like yourself have to wake up and realise Engand aren't a top side! Having lived in the UK for 8 months now, I can say safely enough (not just in cricket), English support and media live in a dreamland!
CMON NZ!!
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Well done, Kiwis, however badly England played let's not take anything away from your performance.
I listened to both Vaughan's interview with Aggers, and Moore's. Whilst not expecting either of them to fall on a sharpened microphone just yet, it would have been refreshing instead of hearing the usual platitudes about "we were disappointing in some areas" either/both of them could have admitted to an almost totally pathetic performance and an assurance that arses would be kicked where necessary.
It is all very well to drone on about "elite sports being about confidence" - that might be an element of it, but the bottom line is that elite sports is about winning. And if not winning, then performing to the best of your ability. England is doing neither at the moment and sooner or later someone needs to be held accountable - either sharpen up or ship out. And that includes Vaughan and Moores.
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Bringing Strauss back so soon is analogous to when McLaren recalled Beckham so soon after discarding him. Seems to me that England don't select tough managers who can make tough decisions and abide by them. The team is allowed to stagnate in the guise of team chemistry and past performances.
I have no immediate solutions like fire this guy and that guy, there seems to be an English failing here somewhere that needs addressing.
If you remember the old 3-envelope story then Moores is overdue in opening number 2.
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If it's not bad enough loosing to a very average New Zealand side, how many more times do we have to listen to the same boring excuses being dished out, after defeat "Were learn from this blah blah blah" There's a lot of hard work to do, blah,blah blah" "Were a better side then this blah, blah, blah" and on and on.
The managment need to come out and say if the present squad are not up to it ,then they will find players that are!
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It is frustrating as any pitch that can pose the slightest of problems seems hard for England. There seems to be a psychological problem with England feeling they have to play too defensively on a pitch that doesn't do much unless for spin. Also they can't seem to last long enough and get enough runs hence 50's or lower scores for each batsman. There is a lack of consistency and concentration which is needed. England need tough players who can adapt and stay at the crease for a long time.
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* At 11:49 AM on 09 Mar 2008,
* Paul Avery, Gloucester wrote:
This was embarrassing.
New Zealand are, at best, a reasonable county side, but they worked hard and played with passion and a plan.
I wouldn't be surprised if the English cricketers themselves were thinking along the same lines before going out to bat in the 4th innings. A reasonable county side doesn't have Stephen Fleming, Daniel Vettori & McCullum to call on in pressure situations, nor does it have the young talent this NZ side has.
Forgot their current averages, players like How/Taylor will push their averages over 40 soon enough, it's just that in NZ we have to blood players earlier due to our lack of depth.....just like Sri Lanka is forced to do. Mills was also pushing up to 140km/h pre his world cup ending injury, and with bowling overs behind him he's only going to get better.
I wouldn't get to depressed if I was an English fan though, odds on that the series will finish in a 1-1 type result. NZ are always prone to batting collapses (just like our English friends!) and a seam attack of Sidebottom/Hoggard (he bowled to his potential in his last spell on day 4) and anyone other than Harmison
is more than "handy". Looks like the selectors will stay with Strauss as it's difficult to drop a player after 1 test, but that decision will be evened out by the exact same circumstances with Sinclair for NZ.
The best bet for England would be to attack NZ's third seaming option if Patel isn't picked (probably O'Brien). Get to him then you might cause some problems....unless you don't let Oram come in and bowl at an economy rate of under 1!
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Moores is the Steve McLaren of cricket.Fletcher was removed and what have we achieved with this new coach-absolutely nothing
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It is frustrating as any pitch that can pose the slightest of problems seems hard for England. There seems to be a psychological problem with England feeling they have to play too defensively on a pitch that doesn't do much unless for spin. Also they can't seem to last long enough and get enough runs hence 50's or lower scores for each batsman. There is a lack of consistency and concentration which is needed. England need tough players who can adapt and stay at the crease for a long time.
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A seventh(NZ) ranked team beat a fifth(England) team in NZ. Big deal! What Moores has to anwer to is why after all the resources inut into his Engand team he has not been able to deliver. Is he the right man to run the team? Time for the ECB to make some tough decisions not least on England players' participation in the gravy train now running called the IPL.Notice Kyle Mills is on the next IPL auction list-coincidence or what considering his outstanding test performance?
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First of all, well done to New Zealand and can we please stop the patronising comments that they are at best a competent county team!
Enough is enough. Harking back to the 2005 Ashes glory days has run its course and we have to accept we are not the 2nd best test team in world cricket - if indeed we ever were!
What exactly does Peter Moores' extended support staff do for its money? With the exception of the catching, we appear to have gone backwards in all departments. I get so angry when listening to our two captains during post-match interviews. Stop talking about so-called "positives" - stop the spin and start admitting that you have got it wrong. Also, the occasional nod towards how well the opposition played would demonstrate some much needed humility and sportsmanship. We were so negative in this test match - why?
Where was the passion and pride that should be a given when wearing the 3 lions shirt? With the exception of Sidebottom, Bell, Panesar and Ambrose (only his first match, so I am being generous) the team seemed deflated and off the pace. Disgraceful. Let's stop the team hugs and the pathetic tapping together of gloves and get back to the basics of hard work and commitment.
Harmison should have his central contract shredded immediately on the basis of his recent interview with Nasser Hussain. You are on a very well paid central contract and doing the job you love for goodness sake! You are hardly being sent out to Helmand province for a six month tour of duty!
Unless we get a fully fit Flintoff, Trescothick (unlikely) and Simon Jones back into the fold, we will continue to struggle under the current regime.
Sadly, suitable replacements are not exactly breaking down the door to get into this team, but at the very least I would give Broad and Shah a chance at the expense of Harmison and Strauss.
Michael Vaughan says they will take a couple of days off before the next test - unbelievable! Why not take off the next couple of weeks instead?
Annoyed? You bet I am!
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We
gotcha boys fair and square.
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I would:
1. Send Harmison home to his growing family - he's a waste of space at the moment. Bring in Graham Onions, who at least gives the impression of wanting to play for England.
2. Pick Broad for the next test - Ryan Sidebottom should never be batting at number 8, and that at least solves that problem, and Broad can hardly do worse that Harmison with the ball.
3. Consider bringing in Shah for Strauss, if only to see what Owais can add, if anything.
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Ok so Harmison isn't bowling well. Do you think this test was about poor bowling or batsmen capitulating?
What's wrong with Owais Shah, Mark Ramprakash and Dimitri Mascarenas? Are they injured? Those are batters.
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Best Comment so far...........
'I am fed up with hearing about "positives" whatever they are. I want to hear about success.'
Time England - and the media - realised that they are not a World beating side - and so shouldn't be surprised at this sort of result.
They are now pitching themselves and playing - at the level they are really at - forget benchmarking yourselves against the likes of AUS or SA.
Try to get some coinsistent results against the likes of NZ, WI and Sri Lanka - then we can talk again in 3 years time!
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The format for England Test Tours should be changed. For a three match tour three three day games should be played before the First Test and a further three day game between the first and second Test. For a Five Test series three three day games before the First Test and then three day games between the First and Second and Second and Third. Otherwise not only will the stadium crowds desert Test cricket but the Television companies will lose interest in one-sided series. Twenty Twenty will no doubt take up the TV money.
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Agree with most of the comments so far....spot on actually. Goodbye Harmison, thanks very much. Step up Mr Broad. Battingwise I just don't know what can be done to strengthen things. Englands second innings was monumentally crap. What does M. Ramprakash feel right now I'd like to know !!?? Well done to New Zealand though I really think Vettori is a class act. Me thinks they might win the next two tests too!! Have they ever done that to England before???
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has to be harmisons last chance , possibly stauss to, bring in shah and broad , it does worry me how toothless our new ball attack looks ! hurry up freddie please !!!!!!!!!!
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What a thoroughly enjoyable test match that was. I hope now that you English fans will stop falling for the hype over your team and come to grips with the fact that they are average. I was sick of hearing how our NZ team was "weak". Sure we have had a few of our best players retire recently, but it seems the English team (who hasn't lost anyone to any Indian league) are in fact the weak team. I can't wait to read what Nasser Hussain has to say about this one after he wrote us off before the series started.
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Why does Kevin (KP)Pietersen irritate me so? I really don't want him to. Well, the KP thing for a start grates (but all sportsman have nicknames that annoy me, so why pick on K, sorry Kevin?). Is it because he's not English? Surely not, I would hope I was bigger than that. Is it because he is a 'Flash Harry'? I once saw him driving his open-top yellow (I don't even know now whether it was yellow but in my mind it fits) sports car down the Kings Road complete with pretty blonde girlfriend. Is it simple envy? Again I hope not.
So what is it then? I've just spent thirty minutes going through his Test stats looking for holes and, well, there aren't many. I simply forgot how well he did last year in England - outstanding. So my point is that he could be great. Too many sportsman are called 'great', 'iconic' arghh... etc. Pietersen does not make you feel the way Australia's batsmen do. When they come in your heart sinks. Pietersen should be scoring more, a test average of 50 is way above other England batsmen, but perhaps unfairly I think it not only could but should be higher. I want to see the shoulders shrug, almost hear the hearts sink of the opposition when he comes out to bat. So in language 'KP' will understand, it's time to 'step up to the plate', 'seize the bull by the horns', 'give it 110%'. You could become not simply one of the best but THE best.
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Just like India's Rahul Dravid (while a great player) played not to lose in England last year, England's whole team played with this attitude. The change in the Indian captaincy and youth has served them well against Pakistan and Australia.
Let's not forget skill - England players don't have the batsmen/bowlers the calibre of higher ranked test teams. What has happened since the Ashes of 2005? I tell you what - key players not around and/or not easily replaced. Give the youngens a chance - might hurt in the short term but it will bode will long term.
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Harmison gets paid more than the whole New Zealand team. I for one am grateful there IS a New Zealand team. I'm afraid with only a handful of players, and with those players being paid peanuts and so rapidly leaving for India, a New Zealand cricket team will soon be a thing of the past. Presumably that will be celebrated in England.
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This performance was dire but all too familiar post 2005. In the build up to the tour Vaughan was quoted about the need to build up momentum to next year but this totally misses the point of what they should be doing. Focusing on what is in front of them is far more important than a series that is so far off. The Ashes victory was great but that has been seen as the pinnacle for the team rather than something to build on. The focus on Flintoff and Harmison was also counterproductive; why not stick with the seam attack that did well last summer. It was showing promise and now bowlers such as Broad, Anderson and Tremlett know that they will only play if Harmison is seriously unfit.
The batting in this match was frustrating because as has been shown time and again, batsmen need to attempt to score to actually put pressure on the fielding side. If the scoring rate drops it means the fielding side get to put more pressure on the batsmen meaning that eventually they get out. It also spreads panic among the batsmen, as seen by England's pitiful collapse in the second innings.
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I feel that the ±«Óãtv HAS LOST ITS WAY IN NOT SHOWING THE HIGHLIGHTS OF THIS TEST SERIES. iT SEEMS QUITE RIDICULOUS THAT THER IS JUST A SCORECARD TO BE SHOWN. i SEEM TO FEEL THAT THE bbc has lost its way in presenting cricket on the television,The sooner the better .
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NZ deserved the victory for many reasons but mainly as a reward for Vettori's attacking nature. How many England captains would have acted in similair fashion and made such a declaration? Vettori has obviously been watching England and knew a 300 run chase on day 5 was simply beyond them. I agree with the earlier comment that we should have just settled for a draw and bedded in because the current batting form is painfully short of conducting a successful run chase. Pathetic.
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I say, let England try. We have to admit, they are a far weaker team than the Ashes 2005. Actually, you could say Ashes 2005 only a spirited but it was inferior than the Australian. Keep supporting them, for the true supporters of England cricket. I'm sure they will rise back to the top. Even if they don't, that's who they are who proud to be representing England with the likes of Sidebottom who never really gives up. I'm proud of them.
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Having watched England play cricket for many years. the players should be ashamed of their proformance and perhaps its time to sack them all and start again. Lets face it what we got to lose.
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Probably the only thing more embarrassing than England's performance here is the opinion of the general public. Having read through this nonsense, it would appear that the proposed way to improve for the next test is to drop everyone except Sidebottom and (possibly) Panesar.
People have offered the opinions that Cook should only be retained for his catching, that Bell should be dropped after his unbeaten second innings score, and that Collingwood (who averages 43 and has scored runs against pretty much all the top test-playing nations) isn't good enough to play at this level. That Hoggard (who, I believe, is still in or around the top ten bowlers in the world? Correct me if I'm wrong...) is past it on the basis of one bad performance. That Ambrose, who kept very competently, scored a debut 50 and then got a brilliant delivery in the second innings, should make way after one test.
People here are questioning the attitude of the England team, but it would seem to me that the attitude of the entire English nation should be questioned; the team might as well be disbanded completely if nine of the eleven players shouldn't be there. It appears that people only follow England to wait for the chance to jump on their backs the minute a bad performance comes in.
Only one player needs to go, and that's Harmison. Afraid the man just looks gone. It's over for him. Still, I wouldn't want Broad to be brought in... another young, talented player to be publically flogged and humiliated should he not be an instant world-beater, ultimately have his confidence shattered and end up jaded and another ordinary 30-something seamer on the county circuit. What's the point?
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No one seems to put their finger on the cause for England's desperate performance.Apart from Harmison, maybe Strauss and Hoggard this is by consensus England's best side.
Does this mean our best side is so poor,or that there is a management /captaincy issue of huge proportions? The latter cannot happen so quickly-is it we really are a poor side with few if any)(sorry Ryan) world class players?
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Message to Michael Nee:
This England performance was not about the players but the way they played. Peterson out of form? 1000 runs in 2007, he is out of form but that just takes him down to a good batsman rather than an exceptional one.
Also Ian bell, his knock showed the good touch he's in. Him and Colly are the Mr Reliable's of the English batting line up. Because he's quiet and unasuming people always like to scapegoat Bell but he'll just keep on racking up those test 50's.
And as for Harmy, well, i think what we really need to do is bring back Ashley Giles!
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It's about time English cricket (which includes future overall strategy, team selection and a coherent coaching policy for every level) was run by ex. cricketers who themselves have had successs in the International arena -may I suggest we look no further then Sir Ian, Athers, Nasser, Bob Willis et al as a starting position. It was extremely fortunate (or was it good foresight) for the MCC to start selling Test Match tickets for the 2008 season PRIOR to this latest debacle. The mediocrity served up by well-paid 'international stars' is probably the best marketing tool that the Indian Premier League could have hoped for. It these abysmal displays continue, together with the high cost of getting to and watchng Test matches, English cricket will inevitably be the long-term loser and it may be sooner than we think!
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England should call Charlie Shrek into their side. he toured recently with the England A team in India, is a tall quick bowler and is currently palying in New Zealand for Wellington so he knows the pitches and conditions. He is also currently one of the highest wicket takers in their domestic compeition.
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I can't believe the negativity that seems to be rife in the England team. It seems that whenever they lose the toss and have to bowl first, they abandon all hope of victory, preferring atritional, defensive cricekt. I've followed cricket for years, and I've felt frustrated, disappointed, but never angry. That is, until now. Harmison should go and not come back. Broad should come in for him. And I'm not convinced about Strauss, he seems so limited nowadays, bowlers seem to have worked him out. Shah should play. The only saving graces were Ambrose and Sidebottom. Sidebottom didn't deserve to be on the losing side.
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Paul Grunill you say that chaging Moores won't achieve anything but you must acknowledge that since he has taken over England's game has gone backwards in every facet, batting, bowling and fielding? What is more worrying is that England under Moores have no clear plan of how they want to win.
I take your point about what happens to football teams that change managers but sometimes it does lead to success as well.
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We need to play Bangladesh every year. In the test series before the Aussies arrived in the UK we absolutely battered them - and would you believe it when it came to playing the Aussies we were ready and they were under-cooked. Now three years later and NZ have performed the same trick on us - a convincing series against the 'desh and everyone's got the rhythm.
It seems the argument is the same in almost every sport - football 'friendlies are useless unless you use them properly' - tennis 'how many warm-up tournaments should you play' and in cricket our very own - why aren't international players ready for big games.
I don't agree that playing one-day games is a good warm-up. If you're a bowler, then avoiding getting spanked around the park is hardly the same as perfecting a consistent line and length. If you're a batsmen then playing an attacking shot every over is not the same as digging in for a draw when you're four-down at lunch!
Let's use what we've got. Ireland and Scotland both have teams - let's use them to warm up before a test series - and maybe give them enough big games to improve.
Changing the players won't change the situation. And ask yourself - if we hadn't had the warm-up against Bangladesh before the Aussies arrived - would we still have won?
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Where is the confidence in this England team? How come Monty Panesar, Ryan Sidebottom and then latterly Ian Bell were able to survive on this final day?
After today's articles about Steve Harmison's contract and his being "scared" I think a very large question mark hangs over his future as an England cricketer. What does he bring to the side if he's only bowling at 82mph and erratically at that. Time for Stuart Broad to get an outing, I think.
What's happened to KP? He seems to have lost his flair. It's nice to see that KP is learning the art of crease occupation but to see him scratching around against Patel when he should be looking to challenge him is disappointing.
People talking about bringing back Prior are talking garbage. Ambrose performed very well behind the stumps and I have more confidence in him than Prior.
I'll bet John Bracewell is loving this having been under fire recently. In fact one might say that England's confidence is in the grave.
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England continue to lower their standards. Perhaps this defeat will stop the management and players talking about the Ashes and focus them on beating some team - maybe there is an under 12 team they can play. The batsmen did not get the criticism they deserved after the Sri Lanka tour where the slow pitches should have enabled them to draw. Any pressure applied to them appears to result in disintegration.
Only Sidebottom and Panesar looked to be of Test standard bowlers but we can hope that Hoggard'spoor performance does not refect a permanent decline. As for Panesar, I am sure he will continue to learn and certainly not just from Vettori - he should aim much higher than that. He has already proved his ability to bowl out teams on some wickets. something Vettori cannot do.
Moores is clearly not up to the job and should be replaced immediately but Vaughan should remain as captain for now as there is no adequate replacement, Collingwood is definitely not suitable.
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So England are lacking in passion, energy and drive? funny that, because just a few months ago we had a wicketkeeper (who admittedly needed to hold a few more catches) whose game was based on passion, energy and drive, yet was hounded by the media for having too much passion, energy and drive. Frankly, its a bit rich to complain about the lack of passion, energy and drive when you've probably played a part in getting the best 'keeper since Alec Stewart dropped.
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Just listened to P Moores being interviewed on 5Live and he's just unbelievable - prattling on about taking "positives" from the game, and sounding confident that they can win the next 2.
This seems to me to show that the there is a worrying arrogance at the top - that we are better than the oppo, and that we "deserve" to win. Vaughan's outpourings over the last 9 months have sounded similar.
Wakey wakey!! We are playing rubbish, haven't beaten a decent side for ages now, and Moores and Vaughan appear totally incapable of motivating the team.
Sack Moores, Flowers (what has he contributed to our batting?!), sign up John Buchanan as coach, and sack Vaughan and make Colly Captain - at least he looks like he is interested in the job.
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I'm sorry to say, and this may sound like a typical knee-jerk reaction to an England defeat but Moores has to go.
After Sri Lanka he said he learned a lot. Hang on Peter, you learned a lot about a tour to Asia. Should an international coach not realise how tough it is going to be for his players before the tour.
All I hear are the same excuses trotted out by Vaughan/ Moores.
I think we need a hard talking Australian, possible John Buchanan as a previous poster has mentioned to shake this team around again.
I see a lack of pride passion etc etc.
Why did Harmison play? He even admitted live on Sky that he was not ready for this test match- yet England still picked him!!
I see no way back for England in this series, and I only hope that this summer brings a new coach and the start of another new era. I don't mind see England lose; but the manner of defeats in the past 18 months has been embarrassing.
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Aggers,
It's quite simple. Would you pay £50 to watch a days play of a test match in England which was led by Vaughan and Moores.
The simple answer is no. Buck up your ideas England - you are so far off the pace it's untrue and Ashes 2005 is a long way back. Perform or relinquish your contracts.
I hope Trecothick returns one day but that decision is entirely his.
As for Harmison - I applaud him that he puts family life first over being on the road for 11 months - with two caveats - one you work bloody hard when you are not playing and two you recognise you only have one chance - you are a long time retired and we need you to recognise that.
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Blame the coaching staff.....absolutely clueless, no ideas and no plan B. Losing to this New Zealand side is a disgrace but the plain fact is they are well coached stick to and execute their plans well so credit to them.
Aggers, you and your media chums got Moores the job with you all writing that he was brilliant this and fantastic that, a little short sighted don't you think? Unproven and out of his depth, why was Tom Moody, who said he would love the job, not even interviewed??? Get Moores out now and we might not lose The Ashes 5 - 0 next year!!!
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The England team seems to lack drive, not skill. I have three theories for why this might be:
1) There is a rift in the team set up when Strauss and Flintoff were in conflict for the captain's job after Vaughan's injury. Players took sides and the scars of that debarcle have not yet healed.
2) There is a rift in the team between those who want Harmison dropped and those who want him to get 'one more' chance. I doubt if the other bowlers are pleased in carrying him match after match.
Furthermore, the batting fragility may well stem from a lack of faith in the bowlers to take 20 wickets.
3) There is a rift between the team and the ECB over them stopping England players joining the lucrative IPL. Most of the key players are missing out on several hundred thousand pounds and the added prestige of joining in on the big new event. Instead, they must play more matches than other international players but without the extra cash.
It's odd that the ECB have suddenly decided to publish player salaries. Why, and why now? Is it because they want to public outcry of the big pay packets of Vaughan, Pietersen et al to silence the petulent posturing of England players who are complaining they are being unfairly treated by missing out? It would be an obvious consequence for such players to loss their drive to play for England...
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Am I the only woman appalled by Harmison's interview with Nasser Hussein. Here is a man who clearly doesn't wish to be there, who would much rather spend time with his family undisturbed by the constraints of foreign travel and fitness regimes but still financed by the ECB's central contract. I wish my husband who has saved his hard earned cash to travel to NZ and watch this shower had such a contract. I totally agree with Sir Ian Botham, everything this man has has come from cricket, and his complacency and lack of desire must infiltrate the rest of the team. Let Harmison return to his family, give up his central contract and I'll have a go!
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I had a feeling England would lose this one as soon as I heard them talking themselves up. As for New Zealand being no more than a "County side", they made it to the World Cup semis while England was fooling around on pedalos..
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Fantastic result, and one I'd never have predicted before the seris started.
Bond aside this isn't a 'weakened' NZ team. Vincent simply hasn't scored the runs, Styris had been in very poor form prior to retiring & Hamish Marshall was never really test standard.
However we're not as bad as some have been sugesting, and you know we'll always be well lead & play to a plan.
What surprised me was how flat England were, and seemed extremely negative for most of the match. I think Aggers is right that it seemed they'd decided it was going to be a bore draw & that was it. It wasn't easy to score quickly, but it was nominefield & England's top order is far more talented than ours, so such a pathetic effort is quite surprising (but pleasing).
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England have big problems at the moment. They need to restore some dignity in the next test, because this was a simply awful and embarrassing final day's play. Remember the glory days of 2005 when Strauss and Trescothick used to get England off to a marvellous start by compiling 100 plus partnerships?? We need to bring back Trescothick,move Cooky down the order,and take out Harmison. SideBottom,Hoggard and Panesar, plus Collingwood is more than enough in terms of bowling attack. Need to sort out our frail and pathetic batting!!
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Disapointing that before and during the first test Jonathan Agnew overlooked the obvious, New Zealand is playing at home on familar wickets which suit their bowlers. New Zealand is rarely easy to beat at home. Perhaps a little more respect would help the English to fulfil their potential.
Good result in the rugby as well. The end of another 1 match unbeaten run for the all conquering English.
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So much for an easy England win then, eh?
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what really annoys me is the fact that we only seem to have 15 players we can choose from, inevitably the same faces = the same scenario. (the coach needs to go as clearly not inspiring and he has NO answers), where are all the other english cricketers??? why pick players who are out of form and unfit? I loved watching flintoff when he was in form, but when he was playing the last few games, the commentators would say ''here comes flintoff, he can really make a diference'' and then he wouldn't, because he was no longer in form! we seem to be living off how players used to be and let them into the team based on their history not how good they are at match time! Pieterson has got to be one of the best batsmen in the world, I agree, but he should not be playing now, neither should vaughn, harmison,strauss and hoggard. if they are telling us that they are better at their worst than ANY other english cricketers we may as well give up now. my goodness they are supposed to be professionals and if we all delivered (as they are doing) at our jobs we would be fired!
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No Marshall, no Styris, no Astle, no McMillan, no Bond.
Embarrassment doesn't even come close to describing this defeat.
Moores must go now! If he refuses to resign we must (Geoff) boycott this Summer's home Tests.
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The positives, such as they were, have to be Ian Bell, whose curve continues upward, and Ryan Sidebottom. I agree that coaches are not like football managers and should not be subject to the same 'hire and fire' mentality, though - as a Tottenham Hotspur fan - the benefits of hard decisions when it comes to managerial changes are plain for all to see.
It is not Moores who worries me so much - after all he introduced our new best bowler Sidebottom - but Michael Vaughn. What was going on in the first innings? There was an insidious defeatism which led to grindingly poor cricket. And it didn't even work!
I think Vaughn's captaincy should be over, though I still rate him as a magnificent batsman and was at Headingley last summer to see that peerless comeback hundred against the Windies. I think England should try the grumpy perfectionism of Kevin Pietersen with Colly as official vice captain. I agree with the earlier comment likening Pietersen to Nasser Husaain who, in my opinion, was more influential than any other person in kickstarting the England cricket revival that culminated in 2005.
There is no sign of improvement so change is needed.
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Aggers you are right is saying that there can be no excuses. We are living in the past, around 2005, to be precise.
This loss in New Zealand was a much worse perfromance than that at Adelaise in 2007. The oposition then was top rate, and on the last day there was more in the pitch for the bowlers.
The batting tactics in both innings showed a naivity and lack of thought. When combined with the lack of preperation of the two main strike bowlers for the match is severe condemnation of the Management and Captain. Moore's is looking like a cricketing Steve McClaren, and Vaughan's future as captain must now be considered. Three straight series losses will be unacceptable for both to remain in place.
The inability of Peterson and Bell to push on to a hundred after getting a start is becoming a major issue. What is going on between their respective ears?
I am sick of hearing about what the players want when planning tours. We should revert to properly planned tours with real warm up matches. If a player does not want to fit into the schedule or has personal reasons for staying at home, then his central contract should be withdrawn and he be told that he will not be considered for the following home test series. Like the footballing colleagues, the impression exists that for those "elite" players who have broken through, that playing for England is no longer the ultimate honour for an English qualified cricketer - it is a job. That attitude must change.
The Selectors should be bold in their choices for the second test. Shah and Broad should be bought in for Strauss and Harmiston. If we lose that test match then Collingwood should take over for the 3rd test match and Vaughan should only play if he is good enough as a batter.
Finally, well done Daniel Valtori and his New Zealand team. They fulfilled their true potential and the sum of the parts was significantly greater than their individual skills. They behaved as you would expect an International side to do.
If
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totally unacceptable. how can an english side play like that? we have been poor for some time, but the whole performance was terrible. the entire test was simply flat from England, it felt like there was nothing going to happen. changes must be made, most pressing is Harmison, probably for Broad, at least he might have some stomach for the fight. Moores should be retained, for now. as for the other selections, they must look outside of the England 'bubble' and to the county circuit. it feels like to much of a closed shop. The only man to break that trend? he was the one who took 10 wickets and a hat-trick.
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Peter Moores is our version of Steve McClaren. He's in the job off the back of winning two 'soft cricket' county championships and does not seem inspiring or tough enough to me. Otis Gibson is nothing more than a journeyman bowler who on the achievement of taking a 10-for at the age of 37 is now a qualified international bowling coach. Whenever you got a Sky picture of the dressing room he was engrossed in a newspaper!! not tearing a strip off bowlers who were way below par. I hate looking back but Troy Cooley.......
Three overseas test series' running England have been nowhere near running at the start. Will anything change from learning these lessons? Of course not. The suits at the top will probably call for yet another 'committee' enquiry to look like they are justifying their roles.
Arrrrgggghhhhhhh !!!!!!
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Bringing Strauss back so soon is analogous to when McLaren recalled Beckham so soon after discarding him. Seems to me that England don't select tough managers who can make tough decisions and abide by them. The team is allowed to stagnate in the guise of team chemistry and past performances.
I have no immediate solutions like fire this guy and that guy, there seems to be an English failing here somewhere that needs addressing.
If you remember the old 3-envelope story then Moores is overdue in opening number 2.
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a good deal of criticism has been rightly aimed at out of form players such as Harmison and Strauss, but I hear litlle about the consistently poor performance of Pieterson. For a player ranked well inside the top ten of the ICC rankings, he fails to produce match after match. The press love his flashy style, but he is not a 'thinking' cricketer-- he is almost always dismissed cheaply playing rash shots. Dropping him from the team might give his ego a bit of a wake up call.
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Bringing Strauss back so soon is analogous to when McLaren recalled Beckham so soon after discarding him. Seems to me that England don't select tough managers who can make tough decisions and abide by them. The team is allowed to stagnate in the guise of team chemistry and past performances.
I have no immediate solutions like fire this guy and that guy, there seems to be an English failing here somewhere that needs addressing.
If you remember the old 3-envelope story then Moores is overdue in opening number 2.
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Tell the England players that they'll not be paid for the rest of this tour or the NZ matches in UK. Replace those that moan or leave with the best of those that would play for their country for nothing.
Then get the team shrink, assuming they have one who understands his job, to demonstrate and educate these wimps on aggression and the way to use it in focussed ways.
At least we'd then have players who we KNEW wanted to be there showing some passion and committment
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Please can we give just a bit more credit to NZ for playing the more positive cricket? They fully deserved their win.
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Well no surprises here - another spectacular batting collapse from England. I do agree with Aggers that there was something massive missing from this England performance. The first innings batting was nothing short of depressing. The reason that England got themselves up to 2nd in the world was because of their positive approach – not giving up because the opposition got 470 in their first innings.
Sadly, Mr Harmison must go this time. The fact that Vaughan let Collingwood bowl before him in the second innings speaks volumes and if Vaughan has any say in picking the team for the next test then Harmison will not be playing. Looking at his slow demise since 2005, it is actually quite unbelievable how he has lasted so long.
There really must only be one choice – Stuart Broad. He isn’t express pace, but would have certainly outpaced Harmison on this form. I’m an Anderson fan, but with Hoggard and Sidebottom – it’s looks a bit too swing samey. I’ve got no doubt that Hoggard will come good in the next test.
Special word about Sidebottom too. Talk about a guy playing with pride and someone passionate about wearing the 3 lions on his shirt! I was among the doubters when he was recalled last year but I couldn’t have been more wrong. It is a shame that his passion hasn’t rubbed off on certain other England bowlers…
There must have been some dodgy team tactics as regards the batting in this match. Even KP was negative and they all made out that the pitch was a minefield. I would not have minded if England had lost this game but had been more positive in the process.
Despite the often woeful batting, I wouldn’t change anything on the batting front yet. Therefore the line up should be:
Cook
Vaughan
Strauss
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Ambrose
Broad
Sidebottom
Hoggard
Panesar
But Strauss ought to be under the same amount of pressure as about a week ago!
And well done to NZ. They played some very positive cricket and credit must go to them.
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I'd agree with Matt at 11.41 about making Pieterson captain. The problem with the team is psychological - the general consensus is that players are just not adding up to more than the sum of their parts (more like subtracting from the sum of their parts). That indicates the lack of strong leadership and inspiration is lacking. Pieterson is naturally confident and competitive, and any aloofness he might have in the England set-up could be useful in ensuring that he can maintain an authoritive distance from his team. It could be a big risk, sure, but he could just shake things up a bit and inspire a bit of fight - exactly what this listless and stale team need.
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The painfully slow batting of Petersen and Collingwood summed up England's negative attitude.
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Hmmm. I really can't see what harm adding Ramprakash could've done to this woeful side. I think a man who averaged a ton for Surrey last summer could've made a 50 or so both innings against the Kiwi's 'attack', and perhaps held together the second innings long enough for a draw.
Enough with selecting 'icons' and let's start selecting plaeres who actually perform. Good night, Harmison. Good night Strauss. Good night (IMHO) Pietersen, you always disappoint.
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Cannot help thinking that Matt Prior would have been able to bat long and well enough in the second innings to at least get us a draw or perhaps a win. But the media destroyed him just like thay have overhyped Pieterson. Like football there are too many old pro's around the England cricket team offering their "four penny"'s worth.
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As a Kiwi, it was great to watch the last day and enjoy the victory. The pitch at the Basin Reserve in Wellington will offer a little more pace and bounce than Hamilton, but not that much more. It will certainly be a bat first wicket. From an England perspective, the only change I would make is Broad for Harmison. Broad has a great future in the game. He has that little bit of a 'Botham' about him - aggressive, looks to make things happen, bangs the ball into the pitch. It's normally very windy in Wellington, and England will need to think carefully about their 'into the wind' options. Broad, I think, could do the job well. The England batsmen collectively need to take responsibility for poor shot selections and overly defensive attitude in Hamilton. They have the ability and experience to turn it around. Should be a great second test!
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Not quite correct about Fletcher - he was invited to leave and his life was made a misery by the media who are far too quick to condemn people.
Moores was appointed too quickly in a panic attack, and after what appears to be an absolutely pointless waste of time of the Schofield review. The ECB should have waited a while to make a decision - the analogy with the appointment of Steve McLaren is a good one.
It's all very fine saying get rid of Michael Vaughan, but who would take his place? In too many counties we have overseas players captaining teams (Warne and Langer spring to mind, and until recently Stephen Fleming himself) so England players get far less opportunity to prepare for captaincy. If we're not careful the national cricket team's fortune will reflect that of the football team. We seriously need a Fabio Capello with the mental toughness to help sort things out and the overseas county captains who've signed up should be let go to the IPL and not ever recalled.
It's all very fine criticising these players for being bland with the media but it's the media who insist on getting quotes 24/7 thanks to this machine I'm writing on just now. The players were not appointed with a second job as PR men and I think some of the postings about what players have said are ludicrous. Of course they'll utter platitudes - because they're damned if they do and they're damned if they don't. Remember the Guardian headline about Fredalo and the trouble it caused?
Hats off anyway to the Kiwis - they really made an effort and got the result.
Harmison is clearly undercooked. Hoggard I would wait a little longer for. Sidebottom - an excellent player.
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I blame central contracts for the malaise afflicting English cricket. If a player is paid what appear to be vast sums of money , then of course his place is guaranteed, otherwise we have to pay people to do nothing. let the contracts be scrapped and send the lot back to county cricket. Players should earn the right to play for England. In all honesty New Zealand are only really a decent county class side and even the much lauded Vittorie is only top class at limited overs. The wickets will be very similar for every test as this suits the home team and their style of play. Has it escaped everyone that the Blackcaps played the test as a series of linked one day matches and virtually all of them were involved in that series whilst most of England's stars were giving it large so to speak?
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bring back ramprakash
get rid of strauss and vaughn
broad 4 harmy
and give the captaincy to collingwood
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The sad conclusion from your article is that even after the inept performances in this test there are few options to change the side. Harmisson should be dropped. I would keep Hoggard - I think he has been a consitent performer for many years. Regarding the batting - too many players are not playing to their potential When did Vaughan or Pieterson last score a century? Strauss looks a shadow of his former self and Cook is yet to find consistency. It is so frustrating because we know these are good players but they are not performing. Ultimately, Flintoff's bowling is a huge loss but a country of England's resources should really be doing better against NZ - a country where the public show no interest in test-cricket and where a number of their players are quitting the game for india. Oh dear.
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bring back prior!
ambrose has done ok but at the moment he's just keeping the keepers position warm while prior learns how to catch.
prior will come back and smack the aussies to death.
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Ok so what do we have from this test match?
Four England players passed 50 in and innings – but how many runs would we have scored if they had been encouraged to play their natural game? Aggers commented on the strange way KP’s innings developed in the first innings and how he seemed to struggle under the pressure not to give his wicket away. Collingwood did what he always does and scrapped for his wicket, Ambrose showed promise with his batting and keeping, Vaughan did what he should do more often and Bell did well until he ran out of partners. Sidebottom was outstanding and Monty began to redicsocer the form that made him such an exciting prospect on debut.
Someone mentioned Troy Cooley. England have not been the same since he joined Australia. Maybe the Aussie factor / attitude was as much of an influence on the way the team played as the reverse swing skills he gave them. We are traditionally a nation who have made more of the way we play the game rather than the results we get. We need to open our eyes and understand that the world has moved on. Sportsmen / women need to wake up and understand that although we love to see them playing well we also want to see results.
England’s women recently retained the Ashes in Australia and had a successful tour of New Zealand. They operate as a team, they fight for each other and spur each other on to success. I don’t see their male equivalents working in the same way.
People keep mentioning Ian Bell and his worth in the England team (or in many cases looking for him to be dropped. Here are a couple of facts. Statistically Bell is more likely to score fifty (or more) in a test match than any of his colleagues. We all recognise that he must convert more of these to centuries than he is doing at present – but he is consistently making a contribution.
While Bell averages 0.71 50s / match his colleagues fugures are as follows;
Cook - 0.60,
Pietersen - 0.59,
Strauss - 0.48,
Vaughan - 0.47
Collingwood - 0.42
I am looking at the English Lions results in India and I am not sure who from that team could step up – any ideas Aggers?
Roger
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Apart from Harmison and to some extent Hoggard all the England players have had some measure of individual success in this game at one point or other. This suggests the problem isnt so much about individuals but about overall collective spirit and direction. For that the blame has to be laid firmly at Michael Vaughn's door.
As all good people manager's know a good leader adapts his style to the individuals in his team and the situation. Vaughn may be capable of taking a confident, performing side to new heights (Ashes 2005 etc)but he clearly isnt capable of lifting an underperforming side out of a long term slump. Time we said thanks for the memories and moved on - Pieterson is my pick.
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85: "Losing to this New Zealand side is a disgrace".
It's no disgrace getting beaten by a better team. "Team" being the operative word. England has some talented players, but they are poor as a unit. Stop dreaming that England is a quality side. 5th/7th in the rankings suggests otherwise. When you're at the top you can talk all you want. The 2005 Ashes were an exception, not the rule. All the media in NZ has described England as "worthy adversaries" etc, and looked forward to a good contest. Wake-up and enjoy the cricket! You can admire the New Zealanders' skills while you wait for England's to improve. It's not an act of treason.
If NZ is a "reasonable county side", does that make England the sunday afternoon pub league 3rd XI? England won't win until they, their media, and their supporters respect their opposition, and take each game as it comes.
Enough about your hubris, victory is sweet! Another round!
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England's progress in the early part of this decade culminating in the triumph of 2005 was characterised by good performances with bat and ball allied to imaginative and inspirational captaincy. All are sadly missing and have been so for a while. I don't think you should get rid of Moores because he's not been in the job a year yet and its ot going to solve anything. Mainly because these problems were evident in the last 12 months or so of Duncan Fletcher's reign
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Dear Aggers,
Its a decent article. But having read most of your previous articles, its just on the fence comments but not completely honest. It in a way reflects "on the fence" comments by Vaughan.
Coming to the match, its one thing scoring centuries in every match (or a double in some!!) against an impotent West Indian attack once every two years (home and away), improve your averages, bully them and falsely show the world that we have one of the best teams having ever graced this earth.
Ever since the Ashes victory in 2005 (I wouldn't call it an aberration but definitely a touch lucky when McGrath was injured and the series was very close) the team is just not a "team".
Petierson is a very good player but not as great as some project him to be. Vaughan is nowhere the player who bullied Aussies in 2002 (that was the best I'v ever seen in test cricket for a long time). Changing the team may not help winning but may infuse the desperately needed enthusiasm.
One last thing, is there something called "Trescothik Syndrome"? I have just coined it. Half this team have got the same symptoms that once described a very good player.
Cheers
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Seeing the forum where everyone has expressed this feeling of downward spiral England has gotten themselves into, this is a gut check time for the selectors and make bold moves like the Indian team did against the Aussies. Would it help to bring in a proven Aussie coach who is tough and uncompromising and light that fire under their bottoms! Even the supreme optimist Jonathan Agnew had nothing to be optimistic of England's direction from here. Good things will happen once we make the tough selection choices.
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it's just a good job they don't show england on normal tv anymore.
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I am tired of being embarrassed by the England cricket team's incompetence over the last thirty-odd years. Except for a brief interlude in 2005, an interlude which has been shown by subsequent events to be completely freakish, England have not been able consistently to challenge the best team in the world since the very early 1970s. While no doubt the players have been decent and intelligent men, in international cricket terms they have also been, and continue to be, complete clowns....as has just been demonstrated yet again.
I can only assume that the county game as currently constituted is the culprit; it's not as if the counties are churning out obviously test-class players who then mysteriously fail to perform at international level. Could I therefore recommend a radical course of action? That there ceases to be an England team. Cancel all tests, including the 2009 Ashes, which at least would, I suspect, prevent England from their first ever (I assume?) defeat in a five-day test during which they fail to take any opposition wickets. The loss of finance would almost certainly cause the rapid collapse of county cricket (would anyone notice, except county employees?). Over the next thirty or fifty years an alternative cricket structure would develop, suited to what people want from a sport and to competing at international level, not (as now) a pretty healthy game at grassroots level smothered by a self-referential and incompetent 'top' tier. I don't think anyone would much miss the England side - no-one has worried that it has been at best second rate since about 1972, so its complete absence would be barely noticed - or even be a relief (I mean, just imagine what is going to happen in summer 2009 - it doesn't bear thinking about).
I realise that this would require those who run the game to act against their personal interests, but I can't see any other way to get rid of the current structure and replace it with a competition which is interesting to the public at its top national level, and able to produce players who can compete internationally.
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The next time an England player states, after another stuffing by inferior opponents (on paper at least)"well we shall have to learn from that" can the interviewer please ask the player who utters such banalities exactly what it is he has learnt because it appears to me the players have learned nothing in the past three years.On the other hand we the supporters have learned that Harmison should go together with Strauss,Anderson and Moores the coach who has brought nothing to the England set up
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It's the negative attitude that I cannot cope with. Playing for a draw right from the beginning of the first innings ? Can you imagine Australia or India doing that ? And don't say "Ah, but they are better sides". Which is cause, and which is effect ? Are they better because they play to win ? Or do they win because they are better ? Play to win, England, and it might just unsettle the bowlers. By playing not to lose, you hand the initiative to the opposition on a plate... and lose.
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To Blog 83
Aggies would you pay £50 to watch a days play,
He doesn't have to, He gets paid (by you and I with our ±«Óãtv Fees) more than that to watch it. So he (and the England Cricket team) get paid to watch the sport he/they love.
Blog 93, What anoys me is the fact that we only have 15 players to choose from. Thought you were talking about the NZ team ha ha ha.
Maybe the players should be on commission only, win and get big pay day, Lose and its Zip nothing narda
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This is a shocking defeat but it is also symptomatic of English sports at the moment
We win a couple of matches and then think we are invincible
Vaughan clearly does not possess the skills needed to motivate the players and with HIS recent performances perhaps he should also be one to go
A shocking and disappointing result
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One word 'PATHETIC'. The English effort is best sumarised by the batting of Paul Collingwood...to score only 2 runs from 50 balls is pathetic inept and a disgrace. Nothing changes with England, they talk it up before the series how they are going to do this and that, but when the pressure is put on them they crumble (as usual). The are weak minded, weak willed, weak skilled, weak aptitude, weak commitment, weak EVERYTHING. England are pathetic and for anyone to say otherwise is just kidding themselves.
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All I can say is Australia are great winners, but England are champion losers
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Moores must go now! If he refuses to resign we must (Geoff) boycott this Summer's home Tests.
=====================================
I like the pun. Seriously though, the England team need to stop going back to the Ashes 2005. I knew this would happen when we won it, but come on Australia have been destroying england for years and i dont see many open top bus parades for them, or even any kind of awards (mbe's etc) for their players esp Shane Warne.
I do like Vettori though, like the variation he offers and sometimes he is like a medium paced spinner. Crucially he can bat.
But England need to sort themselves out bigtime. Stop harking back to the past, look for fresh faces to put the jitters up the squad. Some of those players now think its their god given right that they play for England.
As for NZ being a county side. Ive never heard such tripe before. Again its this arrogance, showing the opposition no respect that hurts me. NZ fully deserved their win today
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The source of all of England's problems can be found in the quote from Vaughan at the start of the tour. I can't remember it exactly but it is something about looking to win the Ashes next year.
Admirable aim Vaughan, but looking to win the Ashes next year isn't going to help you beat New Zealand NOW.
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Any sane person in this world cannot understand why English players and fans keep on talking about Ashes as if that is the only premier series in the cricket world and the rest are side shows. Get real poms. No one else in world cares about it(including the australians). In all honesty, it would take a hell of an effort for England to not lose to even a time like Namibia.
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Aggers, totally agreee that Broad would be a better option than Harmison, he's lost his mojo & is a complete waste of time, what must Otis Gibson think when he puts in a performance like that?? The batting was once again truely disgraceful, when in a position to win the game.
All is not lost though, look at a positive aspect from this game, never have i seen such brilliant catching from an England team, if we can maintain such standards in the field coupled with a return to form of Hoggard (we all know he'll come good, as always) we'll be ok.
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Bringing back Strauss was a predictable failure as well as a retrograde one- Shah needs to come into the team and bat at 6. Time is finally up for big Harmi as well- which is a shame, but Broad has to play. Only way is up!
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Does the ECB remember where they put the number of that nice Mr Fletcher?
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Shame we let Duncan Fletcher go by the way- people go on and on about Cooley, but Fletcher was the best batting coach England ever had- I find it hard to believe he would have put up with this capitulation.....
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It cannot of escaped everyone's attention that Charlie Schreck is playing for Wellington at the moment with good success. He completely outbowled Anderson playing for Auckland when they met this week. Sidebottom was picked on form from nowhere and has been a success, so why should Charlie not be?
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Has everyone forgotten this was a "terrible" pitch for test match cricket!!! Yeah Right!!!
Looking at the evidence it would suggest that it was a good (not brilliant) pitch for test match cricket. There were runs in the first couple of days which were scored at a decent clip (obvious exceptions), wickets over the last 2 days and a game to play for on the final day of the test!!
Just because NZ managed to score 400+ in the first day and half of the test and then England struggled to score at more than 2 runs per over the commentators were blaming a lifeless pitch that wasn’t “conducive†to Test Match cricket - Absolute Rubbish!!!
I think it shows that the commentators were already making excuses for the English Team in the first two days for the poor first inning bowling performance and boring batting performance.
As a keen follower of the Black Caps over the years - I would be the first to admit I thought the Enland side were going to win the test match series 3-0. This NZ side has some talent coming through and some very good players in Oram, Vettori and McCullum but on paper the England side looks stronger. However I think as this test has shown test match cricket is as much about mental toughness as it is about talent.
It was great to see Vettori as captain lead from the front, have the metal to pick 2 spinners and then force the game in the 4th day. Still expecting England to bounce back and possibly win this series against a fledgling NZ side but it was a very encouraging performance from a new look Black Caps side.
As per previous comments – England aren’t as good as they think - or more likely the public - think they are! There batting line up is reasonably strong but their bowling line up seems to living on past reputations.
Looking forward to a tight competitive test match in Wellington – the city of gale force winds
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Whatever happened to the team 'expressing themselves'. There has been an awful lot about batsmen 'expressing themselves' in just about every interview for years.
Not a lot of that today.
Something fundamental has to be done now about the team, not at the end of this series as the next one follows on too soon.
Get rid of Vaughan. Sorry Michael but you're just not hungry enough. Collingwood as Captain of both (all?) aspects of the game - he may have a lot to learn but at least he realises it.
Think SERIOUSLY about central contracts. For FF to have been paid what is reported in the papers today for barely playing is a nonsense it also means that players like Strauss and Harmison are selected because they're being paid anyway rather than because they are in any kind of form.
Say a big HELLO to some new blood - it worked for the Indians - Broad (definitely) but there must undoubtedly be others.
Probably, though, none of this will help as long as the suits and blazers run county cricket.
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Time for England to come out of the shell and make some radical changes ... People who runs ECB didnt like change thats why they brought Peter Moore as a Coach ... When a foreign, energetic Coach was required. Its time for ECB to wake up ... If they dont bring young blood I see another ASHES whitewash ... may be Aussie will win by 4 - 0 ( one test might be drawn coz of rain ) ... Look at the Captain ... he still plays like test cricket used to be in 80s when it takes you 100 balls to score 20 runs ... England bowlers suck !! they dont have any motivation ... they are bunch of old losers ... I m sure right now even Bangladesh can beat them !!!
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England suffer with Acute Ashes Syndrome. Every other series is built up as a recovery from earlier Ashes and preparation for the next Ashes.
It's time for English media to come to terms with the reality. They practically built this series as a win- NZ as pushovers. NZ has always been a hardworking team. They are far more exciting to watch(Fleming, McCulum,Oram, Taylor and Vettori) than England most days.
England are natural losers. If match in the balance, England time and time again have shown that they lack courage to take it to the opposition. They are a C grade team under pressure, especially if a win is possible, they loose.
Harmison, Hoggard, Strauss, Vaughan,Panesar are good players over hyped by the media- they had a few scattered great matches in the past- but over all compared to other top line cricketers they've mediocre careers. Look for Sidebottom to slide toward the average in the near future.
Pointing, Hayden, Clarke, Tendulkar, Dravid, Lee, Murali, Vaas, Kumble, Kallis, Gilchirst, Pollock,Vettori etc are head and shoulders above the English top line cricketers for over a decade now.
GET A REALITY CHECK!!
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England badly needs players of the quality of Dravid,Laxman to bat through out a day.One-day and t-20 houvering over the English Batsmen it seems.
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As I said two days ago England doing so well bowling in NZ's second innings only papered over the cracks in the batting. Today those cracks were made to look as big as the Grand Caynon! With Monty being our 4th Highest scorer every England batsman should hang there head in shame! Most of our batsmen didn't even pass 50 when both innings are taken together! As for replacing Harmison what will that do? Will his replacement score the 100 more runs an innings we need to win? Aggers what are your views on the batsmen? Based on this performance we could carry Harmy and Hoggy if any our batsmen would have gone to get a ton in the first and another 50 in the second!
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NO SURPRISE- CRICKET IS A DYING SPORT IN UK; BARRING AGGERS & A FEW OTHER OLD FEATHERS- NO ONE CARES FOR CRICKET IN U.K.
ENG CRICKET IS DULL, BORING (2 runs per over for 200 overs?). IT"S A PACK OF FOOLS OFF THE FIELD ROOTING FOR A PACK OF LOSERS ON THE FIELD.
I JUST READ AGERRS DAY 4 COLUMN AND COULDN"T STOP LAUGHING.
ENG ARE A BIT MORE IRRELAVENT TO WORLD CRICKET AFTER THIS, GIVE'EM FEW MORE YEARS TO WIPE THEMSELVES OFF FROM ANY SERIOUS INT"L CRICKET RADAR.
WITH ICC MOVING FROM LORDS TO DUBAI, REAL MONEY MOVING AWAY FROM ENG COUNTY TO IPL AND AUSSIE RIVALRY MOVING AWAY FROM ENG TO OTHER TOP TEAMS- LOOK FOR WELL OILDED ENG TO LEAD A TIER III GROUP IN CRICKET.
GO KIWIS!!!!
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Sick sick sick of hearing the phrase "taking the positives". When Australia got beaten in 2005 (yes, it did happen...) they talked about analysing and learning from mistakes and went away and worked doubly hard, culminating in a 5-0 thrashing in of England last summer. Lewis Hamilton uses the same language and I bet wins the F1 world championship this year. Managers and players who "take the positives" are refusing to face up to deficiencies and destined for failure (where are you now, Steve McClaren?).
In essence, though, I agree with the comment by another poster here that the root cause of England's abject recent performances can be traced back to the extraordinary decision to name Flintoff as captain for the 06/07 Ashes ahead of Andrew Strauss, who'd just enjoyed an excellent summer culminating in a 3-0 defeat of Pakistan. The decision destroyed one of our few world-class batsman and created a chasm through the middle of the side which has yet to be bridged.
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As a New Zealand supporter I am astounded at the English media and public response to the loss. Describing the New Zealand team as a competent county team is rather insulting. The team seems to have no respect for other teams, and continues to rests on laurels of Ashes glory.
The players that have replaced the likes of Astle, Styris, McMillian and Vincent are just as talented, if not more so. Ross Taylor is known for being a rapid scorer in the one day form, and has now proven he has the capacity to craft an innings and push on for centuries. Jamie How is a prolific scorer in the NZ one day domestic scene with several double centuries, and is probably one of the most mentally tough batsmen the country has seen in a long time. And the class of such players as Vettori, Oram, and McCullum is well known, and they have been rewarded with IPL contracts.
The England team is a good side and i'm sure the next two tests will be just as hotly contested. They seem to be just lacking a bit of structure and conviction, bring on the Basin Reserve!
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Not one person has mentioned that NZ went into the Test match with two spinners. We have a second very capable spinner in Graham swann who gives the ball a good tweak and varies his flight well in the longer form of the game - why not drop Harmy and Hoggy and bring in Broad and Swann?
Both of them can bat so it will also make up for the shorfall in batting application from the top 6!!
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Gosh, what a dismal performance! I really think it is time for England to focus on women's cricket - maybe we can deliver more success in that arena while the boys think long and hard about how to get back into the game.
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Not one blogger has mentioned that fact that NZ were very successful going into this test with two spinners.
We have a very capable second spinner in Graeme Swann who varies his flight well in the longer game as well as giving the ball a good tweak.
I believe that we should drop both Harmless and Hoggy and now include Broad and Swann. This would also negate that fact that the top 6 batters haven't fired, as both of these can bat as proved in the county game (with Swann's top score of 183). This would also negate the Kiwis from producing any more slow "Roads" and therefore playing into their team's hands.
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Boycott's so-called 'analysis' of this latest disaster summed up exactly what's wrong with England. "We should be getting a clear idea now of what our side for the Ashes will be" he prattled. WRONG! We need to get a side together to win this series now, then we need to focus on the next series etc...England seem to think nothing else matters but 2009 and I think most supporters are sick to death of that attitude. And Moores just perpetuates it! Totally agree with all those fed up of the army of hangers-on that 'Team England' employ.
England played the most deplorable cricket and their negative approach got them entirely what they deserved. Well done NZ.
People talk about far harmison has fallen, but Vaughan has fallen equally as far since 2002 - he can no longer get a place in a 1-day international side because he simply wsn't good enough, so how is test cricket any different? He no longer looks the part and has a very one-dimensional approach to captaincy. Collingwood is like two different players - he has played far too many blocking innings in Tests, why doesn't he adopt his one-day attitude and actually get some runs? Bell needs to stop believing his own publicity and actually make consistent scores instead of preening himself, he needs to know his place isn't secure. And Cook comparing himself to Hayden? Who on earth allowed that embarrassing interview? Until Cook learns to move his feet properly he too will never make consistent runs.
Desperately disappointing and the prospects look none too bright.
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Oh dear oh dear.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of a, ahem, draw (if not a win).
England's attitude was for all to see in the first innings - strike rate of around 30 for most batsmen against a team with a rookie spinner (why didn't KP decide to club him round the ground?) and a pitch that was doing very little in reality.
'Grievous' has obviously got to go, as Vaughan doesn't have confidence in him. Strauss has used up his 'old boy club' credits - one decent pre-test performance is not worth a full recall.
I wouldn't make wholesale changes apart from that. Bell and Ambrose did enough to get some confidence from the match. And a classic long and weak England tail didn't help, but with little in reserve for all-rounders, Broad's the only option.
My line up:
Cook
Vaughan
Shah
Pietersen
Collingwood
Bell
Ambrose
Broad
Sidebottom
Hoggard
Panesar
Another option would be Swann instead of Broad, and use a twin spin attack. But then with Moores seemingly afraid of the unconventional, that'd be a big ask.
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An innocent question:
"This myopia and "we know cricket" arrogance. Is this only confined to English media or is it integral to the sport across UK?"
All I read from the English media leading upto the series was this idea: Eng is a world class cricket team who will use NZ tour as a preparation to fine tune their skills for the upcoming Ashes.
Why so much arrogance? I am the kid from the 1990s and only on rare occassions witnessed England as a real deal in Int'l cricket. So where does this idea that they somehow still hold the mantel of the game of cricket come from?
*A 3-2 home series win in 2005 is a good result but it's not world shattering. Compare that to a 5-0 away defeat in 2007. In both forms of the gane and an T20- England cricker is somewhere between mediocre and dismal. So why did idea that they still own the game?
It's Australia on the field and India off the field who are leading the game of cricket. So why this elitist attitude?
It's a honest question.
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Im sure there were plenty of "positives" to take from the game, Im sure the preparation was "Ideal" and "fantastic" and Im sure the lads will "come out fighting to put it right in the next test". I expect the usual guff and hot air will come from the Team England bubble of Moores,Vaughan, Collingwood etc. I just wish they would stop talking about how great they are going to perform and actually do it for once.
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If Harmison isn't bowling at 90 mph then he isn't worth a place
How many chance is Strauss going to get?
Vaughan has never been a prolific scorer and I think it's time to make way for a younger man. That man isn't Collingwood as he's an average player at best.
Pietersen hasn't performed since the ashes and is too much a celebraty. He needs to go back to County Cricket and score some runs.
The centralised contracts have actually had a negative impact on performance, bred arrogance and complacency. They should be scrapped and instead the players should get paid well when they play a test match and collect a large bonus when they win. At the moment they are on ridiculous money and don't actually have to perform.
Sidebottom has shown what a bit of desire can do. He came to Notts, had a coach that believed in him and really knuckled down and plied his tried with real committment.
So for me, I would bring Mick Newell in as coach and shake the tree a little.
Paul
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Please, please, please, can my fellow England fans stop embarrassing themselves by calling New Zealand a "county side" - did any of you actually watch the match??? NZ batted with purpose and aggression, and the bowling from Mills and Martin last night was perfect test match line and length.
It saddens me to say it, but the collective team spirit NZ seem to possess is the complete opposite to England. They are aggressive, mentally tough, resourceful and play to the best of their ability (rather like the Aussies). England at the moment are a collection of potentially very talented individuals being chronically undermined and let down by a lack of ambition, negative mindset and an arrogant belief that all they have to do is turn up and they'll win. As a consequence, they are playing to the very least of their abilities. Very sad to see, especially as in 2004-2005, the very opposite was true.
I really hope Vaughan/Moores/Miller have a browse of the comments on this blog, as they seem to very accurately reflect the anger and disappointment most England fans feel about the direction their team is headed.
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Fair play to New Zealand - their approach to cricket has always been admirable. They have very limited resources, both in terms of talent and depth, but they always, ALWAYS make the most of every ounce of what they've got. Well played, lads.
As for England? Moores must now go; Panesar must be made to realise that he is not always going to be an automatic selection - let's start trying other spinners once in a while; Harmison has had his last chance. Can't criticise Pietersen: he at least tried to play outside of his usual arrogant mode, and tried to apply himself.
Maybe it would be better if we didn't have a coach at all: let the players sort themselves out once picked, as used to be the case - certainly India didn't seem too affected by the departure of Greg Chappell.
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The test match was predictable in the way that it was heading for a draw. However this would have happened if the batsmen would have shown a defensive tactic within their batting. Cook was out by hitting the ball loosely therefore edging it to the wicketkeeper. He is well known for his defensive play however when needed, Cook decided to attack, which wasn't needed at that moment. A draw could have helped to bring the postives out of the match such as the fielding, bowling (Sidebottom) and the sensible batting in the first innings (Ambrose and Collingwood's fifties). Yet this wasn't meant to be.
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Steve Harmison is picked as one of the "top 11" cricketers in England to play and represent his country at the highest level.He and his family should understand what an accolade this is and how lucky he has been to have these opportunities in life and have such a talent. Yes he has a family but so do most of the other international cricketers playing in the world right now but they either get on with it or STEP ASIDE. What is wrong with him? Send him home from the tour and never pick him again he is a disgrace. This guy used to bowl at 90 + with real conviction and menace, now he is no more than an average fast medium up and down dolly bowler who usually bowls too short, too full or too wide.
And is it just me or have England got a hell of a lot worse since the departure of Duncan Fletcher. Moores has no character, conviction or purpose about him, he is mediocre and lacklustre at best. We do have a good enough squad of test players to be back at second in the world but they lack the belief thay had under Fletcher. We may not be the second highest ranked test team but judging by last nights fiasco we can definately be described as "number two". Someone needs to get in that dressing room and knock some sense into those overpaid pampered underperformers. "It was a slow pitch" ... yeah it was but for both teams, no excuses. There are always excuses with these guys and its pathetic. It i did my job as badly as this lot i would get sacked within 5 days!!!!
Sort it out england, this is painful.
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Firstly, thanks to Paul Sandles for a well-written and insightful post (8). A pleasure to read, Paul.
Well, where do we go from here? I was at a party last night and asked a friend to see what the cricket score was. 90-odd for 9 was his reply. I asked him repeatedly whether he was joking or not. Is this the best this country can produce?
I have a number of points to make.
1) For Christ's sake, stop harking back to the 2005 Ashes. Players, coaches, and commentators alike. Yes, it was a marvellous series, and a great time to be an Englishman. But looking back helps no one. That series is rapidly becoming cricket's equivalent of the 1966 World Cup.
2) Harmison is a waste of space. In his own words, he's not the best 80mph bowler in England, but he's the best 90mph bowler. So that means he's an extremely average 78mph bowler. There's no place for him in the team but at the same time, I have deep misgivings about Broad. In a country of 60 million people, is this really the best we can churn out? Would someone like, say, Steve Kirby, bowl any worse than Harmison? Unlikely. That's an extreme example but you get the point.
3) Why are we constantly underestimating the opposition? Yes, in world terms, New Zealand aren't the best, but what a superb exhibition of playing to their strengths that Test was. They have a talented top order and 'honest', hard-working medium/fast bowlers, not to mention a superb captain and left-arm spinner in Vettori. Considering the players they've lost, I'd rank that Test as one of the best wins in modern times. Thanks in no small part to England's utter ineptitude, obviously.
4) There must be some sort of psychological problem with the England players. On paper that team is 2nd or 3rd in the world but they play as if they're scared to come out of their shell. Someone else made a comment about missing Trescothick and I agree with that. Free-scoring batting puts the opposition on the back foot and also sends the right message to the rest of the team.
5) Maybe it is time for Vaughan to step down as captain. For one reason or another, we seem to have gone backwards in the last couple of years, and his captaincy seems stale and unimaginative these days. As a batsman, I'd rate him in the world's top 5 when he's on song but when's the last time we saw that? Probably Old Trafford 2005.
In summary - we need to get real, stop making excuses and start playing proper cricket. They're all well capable of it but are performing (Sidebottom aside) like shadows of their former selves.
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Let's face it, were not the side we were in 2005. If that side had mainly stayed fit then we'd have been one of the best sides in World Cricket.
This side however is not of the same class and playing with little confidence, especially the batsmen.
This does not mean to say that any side no matter what problems they face should capitulate mentally and technically to a side whose greatest asset is graft (mixed with a decent amount of talent). If the NZ attack had consisted of 4 world class bowlers and the pitch was a dog then maybe.
Like our football & rugby cousins, talk a good game, simply haven't got the bottle.
Well done NZ.
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I reluctantly conclude that central contracts are are at least part of the problem. Too many of the England players seem to have got complacent and the fact that they are very well paid whether or not they perform or even play can't be helping.
This probably sounds heretical but let's try paying the players a retainer for going on the tour then a fair match fee with substantial bonuses for a win and for scores over 50, 4 or more wickets, each catch, etc. Then we might get some more committed performances!
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* 8.
* At 11:48 AM on 09 Mar 2008,
* Paul Sandles wrote:
WELL SAID THAT MAN!!!
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Jon
I know you want England to win and i know you are enthusiastic but you must accept that England flatter to deceive.
after they did well in New Zealands first Innings i think you went over the Top in your praise then in their second Innings when you thought that they might snatch a win was unrealistic.
They are not a good side AND IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH ANYONE PUMPS THEM UP they invariably let all supporters down.
please temper your hopes, wishes, wants with a realistic view and dont give us false hope.
Abbydabi
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Top report Aggers.
I have watched cricket for over 50 years - and playd it as well - but don't pretend to have all the answers.What I do believe is that in 2004/5 we had the best seam attack in the world (Benaud also made this claim in 2004) and certainly the best English seam attack I have seen since the great sides of the 50's.Harmy as one member of that attck seemed to flourish in its security. Under Vaughan for thsoe 2 memorable years we played with aggression , enjoyment and not a little skill.We were forever "at the opposition" - no Team frightened us.
Since that time our bedrock of success - the seam attack - has been destoyed.I find it in sporting terms heartbraking, as I am with Duncan Fletcher who said post the Ashes success that "this Team has still not reached its potential"What might have been if Simon Jones had not been so badly injured - or Freddie so disabled?
We also took one series at a time and Vaughan was forever(and quite rightly) saying throughout 2004 "don't even mention the Ashes to me"
Now all the enjoyment has gone - we are back to the old timid safety first England - our confidence is at rock bottom and there are cries to effectively go back to the old and disastrous ways of a wholesale clearout.It didn't work then and I am sure it won't work now.
My suggestions such as they are is for the Team to return to the 2004/5 approach of enjoyment and risk taking.Thats what Vaughan seemed to be hinting at in his interview.That means we ask KP to be himself and get off his back if he gets out doing it his way. We desparately need to go for class and promise in the bowling attack - and stick with them.. Sadly I can't see Harmy being part of that - at the very least he needs to work his passage back into the Side.
Lastly we really should stop being so condescending to Teams like New Zealand. OK they are not Australia but they ae not rubbish either.Vettori captained beautifully and in truth they played with that freedom and aggession and self belief that England had in 2004/5 and a lot of skill.Only when we have the humility to accept that beating NZ will be an achievment worth having in itself will there be any real hope for us.
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If a qualified psychologist believes it is competence not attitude which is the primary cause of this long-running erosion of achievement, I must respect that but perhaps it is circular.
Cricketers need technical skill (which means ruthlessly analysing strencgths and weaknesses - maximizing one and reducing/eliminating the other and this requires absolute self-honesty which we seem not to do). This feeds confience and self-belief which boosts skill etc.
Cricketers live an hermitically-sealed life. 264 nights away from home and taking 61 air flights a year. They feed off each other like some sporting Big Brother house.
We have to break the cycle of decline and since it is severe, then severe action is needed.
I would send home at once, Vaughan, Strauss and above all Harmison (whose neediness is draining the life out of the others) and replace them with Ramprakash, who has professional grit and is and has always been our best batsman, someone young bursting to play, say James Hildreth, and as a bowler - well we have no-one of ability so chose someone young with courage with Hoggard's willingness to bowl through a wall for his country and team.
This underperforming team is rotting in its luxury hotel and they very much need a fresh start and pychological change before their ability can improve. NZ are worth opponents for us at the moment. Better to start afresh against them than against someone much, much tougher in a year's time
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I agree with most of what I've read except the calls for dropping Ian Bell,a player out of his depth in 2005 ashes but now a master of spin so what's happened to KP.
Also an eminent commentator described KP as player who would be the finished article( that's the gist of the view) if he had a backfoot game yet Chris martin bouncer exposed his fragilty to the short ball:other teams learn as with Andrew Strauss!
Sir Ian was spot on cricketers are paid to go on tour,afterall if you work for an international bank you cannot sat you won't go because of the kids,sorry steve i'm afraid you should be sent back to county cricket:Austaralia dropped Michael Clarke because he had the wrong attitude and look at him now!
One last thought-what happened to Allan Donald and why did the ECB let him go like Troy Cooley was allowed to go
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NZ did play quite well - better than a 'county side'. But let's be fair - they didn't do anything much more than the basics. The deliveries on the last day weren't swinging a foot or so at 90mph on a minefield. They were good length and straight, on a relatively good if slow pitch. Move your feet, get forward and play the ball. It's not rocket science...!
As for their batting, they did the basics - got forward and played the ball on a good pitch. This wasn't Brian Lara in his pomp. Saying they're like a county side is OTT, but they're 7th in the world for a reason.
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The stupidity of the mental side of England's game that they go for a draw rather than a win is pathetic when compared to the Australian's (and indeed most other teams) who will always go for a win. There are no excuses for England - they were dreadful. Nothing can be taken away from the Kiwi's either as they played very well and are a great side, making a mockery of what people say that they are a second rate team at best.
The fact that Bell, who's injured lets not forget, got half the England score shows the lack of confidence from the batsmen in their own skill. I think the problem is the management as Strauss should be in the team ahead of Shah as he is a better player and did not have a bad first innings. But the way the batsmen play has to be natural - that's what they're picked for isn't it? Furthermore why isn't Ramprakash picked instead of some of the less able batsmen or at least given his chance?
Sidebottom alone showed the true passion and drive thats needed from a true sportsman and, as a result, was the best bowler. Well done to Monty for playing a great game and has really improved his batting. Harmison is surely done now. If the England 'strike' bowler only got 4 overs, thats enough said.
Has it ever crossed anyone else's mind that it's only the England players that you hear 'suffering' from stress and homesickness. You would not hear a Kiwi, Aussie or South African complain about it or use it as an excuse. What's wrong with this country?
In summary, England are not a world beating cricket team and it really is as simple as that.
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England went with a negative tone by selected too many batters. When you have collingwood bowling as second change you know you have problems. They should be play 5 bowlers, 2 of them spinners. I don't believe Swann test match class, i'd go for Adil Rashid as Kiwis struggle against leggies it will also give Adil great experiance.
How they can select Strouse ahead of Shah is beyond me. There seems to be old boys club and they always pick their mates.
Serves them right.
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Time for some careers advice?As professional sportsmen and all that it entails a number of the England team are clearly in the wrong job.Even if they won the next two tests convincingly their clear lack of effort as a team[ref. J.Agnew]over the one dayers and 1st. test damns them them from appearing in front of a paying public.Do they represent the pinnacle of cricket in England?A professional sportman would go down fighting.You've got to feel sorry for the likes of Sidebottom who's clearly got what it takes.
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As one of the thousands who had spent thousands to ensure England played in front of a home crowd, I have to qustion the commitment of some of the players. Jonathon is right about Harmison and with Hoggard off tune England were down to two front line bowlers who bowled with commitment and heart throughout. But where were the batsmen, apart from Bell, in the second innings. Yes, there are no excuses but there ought to be heartfelt apologies to the England fans for a dire performance.
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About 2 years ago graeme smith commented that Kevin Peterson was not good enought to get into the SA team.....so WHY is the GREAT PRETENDER pulling the wool in the England team!
Strip out a couple of his scores and his average is pathetic. He is at best a very average player and could only get away fooling an average coach and cricket selection structure.
As someone else pointed out the problems are systemic with English cricket as they are with football and rugby (boxing doesn't count as it isn't really a team sport!)!
For a cricket side that is highly funded the return is nil! The cosy atmosphere that the team are accustomed to makes them mediocre at best.
Sack the coach, peterson, vaughan, harmison, strauss, bell, collingwood, hoggard, panesar....MEDIOCRITY at best!
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Great to have so many of you getting involved....
Hoof1 (message 77) - my view is that primary responsibility of deciding tactics lies with the captain, not the coach. I agree that some of the England players are under-performing but that can't be said of Ryan Sidebottom - and I believe that is because he is prepared to take responsibility for his own performances, not rely on coaches to do his thinking for him. Can all the others say the same?
Jonathan (message 82) - you say England should appoint John Buchanan - what makes you think he'd be interested? A coach is only as good as the the players he has to work with and England don't have a Hayden, Ponting, Hussey Gilchrist, Warne or McGrath.
mustard09 (message 90) - You say bring back Trescothick. I say, move on. He isn't playing international cricket because he chooses not to. That's the end of the story until he chooses to make himself available and it doesn't look like being any time soon.
Simon (message 98) - you make a good point except for the fact that Troy Cooley was also a journeyman bowler. Ottis Gibson doesn't tell the bowlers to spray it all over the shop - the responsibility is theirs.
Paul (message 152) - Mick Newell has done a fine job for Notts, but given that many contributors think Peter Moores is out of depth, what makes you think Mick could do better at international level?
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An out of form Bell means the only person who offered any resistance against the New Zealenders does it?
some how i think not
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While the 2nd innings batting collapse was embarassing, the long term problem is our mediocre bowling attack. Allowing NZ to post 470 showed how blunted our attack is. England have now played 7 consecutive tests without taking 20 wickets. If you can't take those 20 wickets you don't win test matches. A huge hole has been left with the injuries to Simon Jones and Freddy and the likes of Broad, Anderson, Harmisson are not in the same class. Unless Simon Jones and Freddy can get back we'll see more of this.
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What concerns me is the way we get new, talented players in the side, they perform well for a while but do not seem to acquire much toughness or learn from what they see others and opponents do. Then they end up physically or mentally injured - or both.
Harmison has never been a force since Troy Cooley left, and Strauss since he was passed over as captain for Flintoff - bad decision that.
We need management and coaching that will strengthen and motivate our players, and take them on to higher levels, not the reverse. We must also face the fact that Flintoff, Jones and Tresco will probably never play for England again, and Harmison should not.
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I really think Vaughan must step down as capt. HIs negative attitude i.e. don't lose as opposed to go ut there and win must be finished with. I learnt this at school, how come a 33 yr old with his experinence hasn't learnt this yet?
The difference is clearly in the mind-set. Harmison epitomises this. I don't think tweakng the odd player will make any difference. The only player with cojones I've seen recently is Sidebottom and Prior (let's get him back!)
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The most worrying and obvious negativity is the response of blogs here.
I think the tone should have been better set by Jonathan Agnew.
How otherwise to explain the ridiculous condemnation of Ian Bell?
If you berate a player who has just carried his bat through a collapse where the next runs were 13 to his 54*, then the inmates have taken over the asylum.
One even accused him of preening. On what evidence?
For goodness sake give the guy some credit. He was even carrying an injury.
Sky praised his innings, as did Cricinfo and many others, yet Agnew chose not to mention him at all!!
Is this an example of his negativity?
Sidebottom got a hattrick. Cook caught brilliantly. Bell's innings was chanceless.
And yet someone complained that he had not converted this 50 to 100!!
Perhaps a visit to the scorecard might tell him why.
The top six did not collapse.
Five did.
England were goaded by NZ playing mind games.
Fleming said, are you a man or a mouse?
I think Cook and Vaughan showed too much attack and intent before getting themselves in.
Tendulkar and Sangakarra work to get themselves in whatever the situation.
Cricket is a mental game. That is why collapses happen. Look at Australia recently to look at top order collapses. But they were saved by their tail.
One of our greatest weaknesses is the non-batting tail yet no-one has mentioned it.
Only Panesar stayed with Bell. And he's No 11.
For me the non-appreciation of Bell by Agnew and others on this blog shows the tendancy towards destructive criticism. Maybe it is that killing the team?
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Does anyone know if Simon Jones is hopeful of playing for his county this season, let-alone England?
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England have been on a downwards spiral for the last 18 months. Didn't they learn anything from the 5-0 whitewash in Australia? After the Aussie's lost in England in 2005, they went away and looked at what went wrong and what England did right. They then set about rectifying the situation.
What have England done to stop the downward trend? Instead of the excuses, that have now been replaced with 'taking the positives away from games', how about some positive action? Things need to change, they just can't keep plodding along the same route waiting for things to happen. A good start would be replacing the coach...
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I think they all (except sidebottom and Monty) should sign up for the Indian Premier League (IPL)and get a new set of lads has this lot are pathetic!
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This is an outsiders perspective from an Indian fan, but somehow I feel with England, there's always so much talk about future direction, strategy, psychology, tactics and coaching.. and not enough emphasis on play in the middle. The current Indian team is living proof that a head coach is overrated compared to the internal leadership of the team and their collective willingness to fight it out in the middle. That should come from the captain, as he is the one marshaling his troops, not the coach. This is not to say that the Indian team couldn't have done better, but no coach could have gotten more out of them than what they have done on their own in the past few series. I think its time England players held themselves accountable and the fans stopped blaming their coach.
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I am extremely disapointed with England's bowling attack which is in a desparate state now its all good saying when they are fit we shall win but in the mean time we stil have to win games. Steve Harmison does not deserve to play he has bowled poorly for some time now and should go back to durham and become the star he once was Matthew Hoggard has most probably had a poor match due to the pitch . The fact that New Zealabnd posted 470 was extremely disapointing it is clear the bowlers have not prepared for this tour and it could cost them dearly we must prepare for tours better otherwise we shall become like the west indies and bangladesh which no one wants to see. You can't just say sack them because you will end up with no one left in the team we do have good players. Peter Moores can only do so much with the players he has been given he will most probably never be able to fix Harmison. England must improve the bowling attack soon The Ashes is only just around the corner.
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This was an atrocious performance by England, but they have been awful since the 20-20s. They have lacked energy throughout the summer, and that was apparent when I saw them at Christchurch. They are very very DULL. It's one thing to get beaten, but to score at two runs an over in the first innings and Collingwood to get 2 runs from 50 balls is an absolute disgrace.
It's astonishing that Hoggard and Harmison are so undercooked, although Harmison has been undercooked since South Africa 2004. Since then he has been absolutely awful and has not deserved his place in the side since the last Ashes.
Most disappointing has been Pietersen who is clearly our best batsman. It is incredibly disappointing to see such an exciting unorthodox player playing in such a dull unexciting way. Taking nearly 180 balls to get 42 in the first innings is so out of character, that it makes me think that the coaches have had a word in his ear.
As for New Zealand, well they are showing themselves to be greater than the sum of their parts. Vettori has been great as captain all summer and is the best finger spinner in the world. The batting lineup is solid and McCollum has become the best wicketkeeper batsman in the world as Gilchrist drifts into retirement. They are energetic and exciting. The exact opposite of England.
I am going to the Wellington game and hoping that it can't get worse, but I see no reason why it will change. England learnt before the Ashes 2005 that the next match was the most important and they were enjoying their cricket. This seems to have disappeared. They need to get to that attitude.
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The England cricket team is much the same as the football team and (currently) the rugby team - what does that say about English sportsmen? Everything I think.
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Let the Ashes 2005 never be mentioned again - might as well talk about Illingworths ashes victory.
The concept of loyalty and consistency of selection was right for a long time,but now the players have to deliver now , not in the future.But also have to do more than just enough - a few classy fifties are not enough. When Kallis is here in the Summer will he acknowledge a fifty ( boring??).The bowlers have to aim for wickets every game and not be happy averaging 30. Cut out all the boring talk and flashy shows of togetherness. Lets see how tough they really are. Some of the players will have to drop out of the team and this could mean a batter who makes 50's , but no tons.
Let England play for 5 days every session and lets see them not decide what will happen , but make things happen.
Come on england show us you can do it for the next 10 days of test cricket.
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I'm stunned by the contrast in comments in just two days. Yesterday many were bold enough to predict a grand England victory.
Fact is you can't read the writing on the wall with your heads in the sand
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It's a crushing disappointment to see the post fletcher england team metamorphosis into a weakened side, from the heroics of 2005. England are now well short in the one day game and know slipping down the rankings at test level. As a Lancashire fan living in Yorkshire (I know I'll keep my head down) it does not look like my county have any players to offer or strengthen the England team at the moment. I would love to see Jimmy A making strides forward but his game seems to have leveled off. I think Broad must have the best chance of all the young players to have a 10 year stint at the top, his famous expensive over that he may be trying to live down can be the making of him. Get Shah in the team for me.
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I am an Indian cricket fan who lives in London. Objectively speaking re the recent England vs NZ Test, it is obvious to me that the problem with the English team is not a lack of talent - it is an abject lack of aggression. It essentially comes from a complete denial that even Test cricket globally is changing. You have to be sharp, quick, hungry to win and have the ability to change things quickly, apart from being talented. Rigidity and pitifully clinging to how cricket used to be is useless. England first rejects one-day cricket and says its first love is Test cricket. Then it abandons aggression in Test cricket to really regress. The results are for everyone to see. It is also ironic that after England invented Twenty20 and then completely flopped in the world cup, now a columnist in the FT says IPL is a manifestation of a nouveau riche country embracing an obscene format out of bad taste! I think playing such a dull form of Test cricket is a sub-conscious effort to justify playing one-day cricket poorly and Twenty20 disastrously.
How Vaughan and company could possibly think that scoring at 2 runs an over will make their fans happy regardless of the outcome of the match? Why has this system emasculated Pietersen? Why is Harmison a 30-year old infant who needs to be breastfed? Why is mediocrity celebrated as fighting gallantly? Maybe the team and their fans are most happy moping and I just don't get it!
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How is Ian Bell out of form? He was the only player to get any runs in the second innings. I think Harmison has to be dropped and either Broad or Anderson should play in the next game. Give Hoggy another go - he was vastly improved in the 2nd innings, and the batsmen will hopefully play better on a pitch that was better. It can't get any worse...
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That's the problem with you England supporters - always comparing to glory teams of the past - Panesar to Underwood, Bell to Amiss etc. Get over it and look ahead.
As for the condescending clown who said NZ are at best a good County side - he must have a pretty high opinion of County cricket. The NZ side has the best left-arm spinner in the world currently - Vettori, the best wicket-keeper batsman in the world currently (given the retirement of Gilchrist) - McCullum, the number one ranked all-rounder in the world at the moment according to the ICC rankings - Oram, A world class batsman - Fleming and they are backed up by a bunch of young, keen up and comers who are prepared to work hard and play together as a team and not throw the towel in.
What do England have? Two world class batsmen who are out of form - Vaughan and Pietersen. That's it. The rest are capable cricketers. Panesar has fooled everyone in England into thinking he's world class by eccentric celebrations at the fall of a wicket but he has no flight or variation, Harmison is a joke. Hoggard and Sidebottom are the equivalent of the NZ seam attack - they try very hard, occasionally have their day but really shouldn't be a major threat to world class batsmen. And your batsmen have gone MIA.
NZ are rebuilding and are miles from being a top test side but we don't think they are any more than that and we celebrate their accomplishments and will gradually raise our expectations as they improve and gain experience. Trouble is, after such an inept performance by England in this test, out stupid media will start talking us up as dead certs for the next test! Pride cometh before the fall. Let's hope the famous bulldog fighting spirit comes out of the English Cricket team.
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Lets face it..in the modern game England are really hopeless. 5 day or one day. All previous comments have theories why and nearly all are right but lets face it how can this bunch get on a par let alone beat their culturally tougher and more skilled opposition??
They can't end of story. There was a period in 2004-05 when we had a purple patch a culmination of many things, mainly fitness and togetherness. The MBE's couldn't be handed out fast enough because even the Queen knew it wouldn't last.
The batting had a bravado stemming from perhaps the knowedge that they had the best pace attack in the world at the time to dig them out of any failures. So here's my gripe...
The bowlers were inspired by Troy Cooley, his insider knowledge and aussie accent. He had respect.
I don't know how much he wanted to get paid but i bet it was consierably less than the dieticians, Manicurists, brain trainers, and shoe shiners that have gone to New Zealand.
Mitchell Johnson and Stuart Clark were off the radar before he went back. They may not have shiny shoes but they'll retain the Ashes next year. Congratulations to the Kiwis.
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A pity that there is only a handful of posts in here with praise for the NZ team and their performance.
There are some pretty disrespectful posts in here about the calibre of the NZ team.
I was surprised to read before the test how much talk from the England camp was about the Ashes build up. Can't they focus on that a bit closer to the time and concentrate on the opposition they are playing currently?
Really pleased for Danny V and the players, I'm looking forward to getting along to the 2nd test at the Basin and hopefully seeing some good positive test cricket.
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England's problem to my mind is that it's hardly ever they lose because the opposition is better. It's because they are under done, they're flat, central contracts, 20 20, I could go on just like most before me. For G sake would you stop making excuses and someone please admit NZ are the best side.
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Paul
Your posting (176) queried Simon Jones' fitness status. In a recent local news paper interview he stated that he was injury free and looking forward to county action with Worcs. With an England place his long term target. Many are quick to right him off due to his injury history but remember he came back once before following a bad injury in the ashes 02/03. He is only 29 so has a few years left in him if he could keep fit.
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right, where do i start. the good thing for the england side is they leave this country in a few weeks, as for myself on the otherhand i've come here to make a better life for myself and i will be stuck here listening to how great nz are when really they are in world terms two bob! the side has been desimated by players retiring and going to play in the indian league, which brings me back to the state of english cricket. poltical correctness stipulates that i can't use terms that fit this england side. we are consistantly poor and defending players must stop, there can be maybe one or two at best players that can hold there heads up and say at least i was trying but the rest shame on you. people would die for the chance to tour nz and give 100%
harmison is a joke, give broad the chance he deserves, peiterson should stop reading how great he is and proove the selectors right, even bell with a bashed up hand shows more backbone. peter moores should change his name to keegan, what a poison chalice you've taken on mate.
sussex boys stick together, hard lines! at least you don't have to listen to simon doulle, and mark richardson talk cricket. what a joke!
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Bring back Duncan Fletcher
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England have to suck it up and call it as it is now. Does anyone see the similarities in attitude and selection with the Eng rugby team? It's a British way of sporting life now to reflect on past glory, and continue to quote sound bites or political spin at the end of a test and look for quick fixes. I'm sick to death of how many times Vaughan says 'We can take a lot of positives out of this', when they've just been hammered. Eng batted not to lose as soon as they came out in their first innings. Playing to save the game first before trying to win it. Has anyone ever seen Australia do that, or for that matter any other side?? Through a mercurial interjection from Sidebottom they miraculously found themselves with a chance to win, and then gave one of the poorest performaces of a test side ever on the final day.
NZ aren't a great test side, but they proved that the will to win is by far greater than the fear of losing. Harmison should be sent home, lose his central contract and go back to country cricket to remember why he's playing cricket. NONE of the former great fast bowlers ever had a slump in form like Harmison has, and in 2005 he looked like developing into a world class beater.It's all too easy now for players to sit on their contracts and make loads of money. No wonder Bob Willis is fuming after spending a career pounding in giving 100 percent all the time.
There are no quick fixes, Eng must pick a team, and stick with it - form is temporary, class is permanent, Bell, Vaughan, KP, Cook are all class but only Bell the least vaulted of them has really been consistent.
So, Mr Moores and Mr Vaughan, don't be cowards, pick the team on form (eg. neither Strauss nor Harmison should be there) and tell them all to get out there and play to WIN, WIN WIN...
After this series Vaughan must either give up the captaincy or retire, having two captains in the team running test and ODIs separately NEVER NEVER NEVER works (or only for a short time (eg Ponting/Waugh).. just like having strike bowlers play either test or ODI cricket and not both NEVER works. If you're good enough to bowl in test cricket, why aren't you good enough to bowl line and length in 10 overs in a one dayer?
Good luck England, maybe you could do with someone like Warren Gatland or Sean Edwards as your coach? It's so obvious that the players are there, but the system and management isn't...
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Captaincy is where it's at.
Rupert (no. 144), I couldn't agree with you more. The decision before the 06-07 Ashes to replace Strauss as captain with an 80-per-cent fit, undercooked Flintoff was a disaster, big enough to wreck the team's direction for years. You're right, there WAS a sense of direction in that series win over Pakistan in summer 06. Nb Strauss's batting even improved when he was captain - a sign of a natural in the job, and not the case with Vaughan (at the moment anyway) or Flintoff (ever). And Flintoff's record as captain until 06-07 had been very in-and-out.
I hope I'm wrong, but I really do wonder if the Team England powers-that-be felt we'd lose the 06-07 Ashes series anyway - and so on some level (subconscious?), they didn't want to face the endless barrage of media abuse if Strauss had been captain. 'If it had been Our Freddie instead, we wouldn't have lost, would we?' Well, at least we found that out. At the price of Flintoff being destroyed for good?
The only way from here (we have to hope) is up. Changing captains in mid-series isn't on - and anyway Vaughan has to be trusted to turn this one around: on known form pre-05, he has it in him. (Form is temporary, and class permanent? Yes.) But - if he doesn't, and if Strauss starts getting some decent scores again - two big ifs, yes, but if that's what happens in Wellington and Napier, then how about giving the captaincy to Strauss again in the summer?
Because if we don't, what's the future? Collingwood? Really a Test side captain? Pietersen? Since the Oval in 05, and a double hundred against a feeble Windies bowling attack, what's he DONE?
Well done to NZ, and then some. WHAT England could learn from their approach - if they were prepared to look beyond denial. Another big if. I'm not optimistic. Is anyone?
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An interesting thing for me was, that on the NZ sky sports commentary, within the first 2 overs, Mark Richardson said he expected New Zealand to win based on how they started the day. He thought straight away that New Zealand came out more up for it. At the time I thought it was a bold comment, and it was still in the balance, but he was absolutely right.
Another good comment was that a team often reflects their captain's spirit. I thought that really showed through. Vettori isn't just a skillful and intelligent player, he's a winner. It's a long time since I have seen any sports side from NZ look like a team that really wants to win.
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Paul from ±«Óãtv
You say a Coach is only as good as the players he has to work with.Does that apply to just cricket? or other sports? Is the NZ coach a good coach or average coach? or a great coach for putting one over the English team?
If we look at rugby, Is the English team poor because of the coach or the coach poor because of the players? The Welsh team they had a below average coach for the world cup and didnt make the quarters.Are they below average group of players? Now the same group of players and a new coach? what are they doing now?
A coach gets the best out of the players
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Vaughan may not be the best captain long term but to change him mid series on the basis of one very poor result won't bring about an immediate improvement - unless he WANTS to go, like Hussain did. Forcibly changing the captain mid series usually doesn't work - remember 1988? Gatting, Cowdrey, Emburey, Gooch - four captains but we still lost the series to WI that year 0-5. Also I'd hang on to Strauss for now as I'm not really that confident about Shah's ability to shore up a middle order so lacking in confidence. Perhaps Strauss isn't such a good idea in the middle order - perhaps he should be opening with Cook and Vaughan should drop to No 3.
Harmison is obviously past his use by date and doesn't want to be here, so learn from the Trescothick meltdown and bring in Broad - he's the big hope for the future and would strengthen the tail end batting a bit too. And leave Monty alone - he's doing OK, learning all the time, and he's our most potent left-arm spinner since Underwood.
And Ambrose scores a fifty in his first test, keeps well, gets a brute of a ball in the second innings, and needs to be dropped? This is part of the problem - no one gives anyone a chance to settle into the side. Steve Waugh didn't score a hundred till about his 27th Test or something - he ended up being just about worth his place, and so might Ambrose.
Long term captain (ie for this summer's home series v NZ) - probably Collingwood (not Pietersen anyway - like Flintoff and Botham before him, both unsuccessful captains, he needs to be allowed to do his thing as a player). But certainly consider retaining Vaughan as a batsman unless the new captain feels having his predecessor around would be a hindrance to him running the team as he wants.
Anyway, two Tests to go - if the boys win them both they'll go home heroes and Hamilton will be forgotten.
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Just hope Simon Jones gets his fitness back this coming season.As far as the bowlers are concerned Peter Moores doesnt have the natural talent available to him at the moment. If Harmi has'nt the yips he's just completely lost his confidence, we know you can do it though harmi, but time to take a step back and a break from international cricket and earn your place again. The batsman again i believe are good enough but perhaps a combination of low confidence and poor shot selection. Why when we were 60/4 couldnt someone just stand up and decide that no actually we're not going to lose this, and play a geoff boycott type innings! Wheres the fight and common sense
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The "reasonable county team" have outplayed the star studded English outfit again. Seems to keep happening.
Credit where credit's due - congrats to Vettori and the NZ boys for a great performance. Bring on Wellington.
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Well played NZ, very good win.
England's problem, is that they keep going on about the Ashes 2005, which Im getting sick of hearing, and the team seems to be a closed shop, with over-hyped players.
For goodness sake, get on with it, justify your central contracts or disappear, stop whinning making excuses and trying to pull the wool over our eyes, but most importantly pay your opponents respect. Honestly!
Once again, good win New Zealand
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BTW i dont think pieterson has been the same since he got properly smacked on the helmet by that indian? bowler last summer. or was he sri lankan. my memory deserts me
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Interesting that NZ are still described by some in rather dismissive terms as no better than a "good county side" or as been "pretty average." Oh really? How many county sides have a finger spinner better than Vettori, a more exciting batsman than Taylor or wicketkeeper/batsman McCullum, or better allrounder than Oram? Yes, England played poorly but until supporters give credit to opposition that has genuine world class talent they will continue to be talen aback by the success of teams such as New Zealand.
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I think Paul Avery’s comment “NZ are at best a reasonable county side†is somewhat patronising. It is little wonder that we who reside in the remnants of the Commonwealth have strived to over come hundred of years of psychological abuse from the “motherlandâ€. The school bully gets dealt to occasionally so get use to it.
George W
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The more I watch/listen to England play the clearer it becomes. England are not that good. They struggle to take wickets. They make hard work chasing/setting any innings. They even struggle on feather beds and always seem to be "unlucky" with their dismissals. The way England are playing I bet they would make hard work of beating Bangladesh. The excuses have got to stop and if I hear Vaughan talk about the "positives" (in a Test he doesn't win) I might shoot myself.
Then there is England's mentally. You would think they were being coached by Capello seeing how negative they play. Go for the win and stopping fearing the loss! Ever heard of the saying "fortune favours the brave"? Finally I'll say this adapt to conditions! If you see Harmison or whoever bowling toffees take him out of the attack. If you have batsman in for a long time add variation! Change bowler, bowl round the wicket strangle the opposition for runs. I can't believe I have to say this! Isn't Vaughan suppose to be a great tactician?
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New Zealand have surprised everybody and probably even themselves with this excellent performance against a wretched and insipid England. In Vettori they have a world class cricketer and a captain with a positive attitude. They have batsman with the mental strength to bat for long periods and a bowling attack that perhaps lacks variation in the seam department but always asks questions.
I thought Vaughan's post match interview was appalling. He was almost laughing off the defeat and didn't come across as somebody who was going to reprimand his troops.
There are some bad smelling corpses lying around in the English dressing room and Harmison and Strauss have to be removed immediately. Harmison has no heart for the challenge and Strauss has lost his footwork, timing, technique et al.
I think there is a degree of complacency in the squad and in light of performances over the past 18 months is it time to revisit the question of Central Contracts? Look at Sidebottom and how hundreds of overs in county cricket have prepared him for the bigger stage. Net sessions against your mates are no replacement for competitive cricket.
It's time for some decisive decisions to be made by officialdom and selectors.
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That was terrible. To get back into some sort of position after being so bad for most of the match, and then to capitulate like that, dear oh dear. We made Mills look like Marshall and just seemed to surrender in the 4th innings. Unpalatable stuff.
Harmison should be binned after this series surely, back to county cricket for a good while. He's still young enough to come back sometime...although who can ever tell with SH. Let's stop worrying about it now and give some other quick a try (is it hoping too much that Simon Jones has a good year at Worcestor and comes back in?!)
Also I don't really understand what Strauss has done to "get back in form" since he got dropped. A couple of weeks playing club cricket in NZ? And he looked just as scratchy as last summer. I'd give Shah a go in the next Test, he's played well when called on, and at least he'd be hungry for after being messed around in Test cricket for so long.
But after that shambles, I'm not sure if any changes will mitigate the psychological edge NZ now have.
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I'm really pleased for Sidebottom. It shows what a good action and hard work can achieve. But he is the only one in the current side to be bowling with any rhythm. Harmison's action is so jerky that if he has no rhythm, he can't bowl 2 balls in the same place. And now Hoggard has lost just a little nip, his action doesn't fire when he tries to make up for this with extra effort and he is also all over the place. Both Hoggard and Harmison need time away and match overs under their belts to see if they can rediscover rhythm - if they can't, it may be time to look at other bowlers. Certainly, for this series, one or both need to be dropped.
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Er...Huw. The England cricket team actually represents Wales too...
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Aggers, you know this England side and slide is starting to look a great deal like the West Indies slide into the depths of mediocrity. I believe there is a need for a new captain, Harmison is a waste but the problem here was the batting.... it was pathetic... as I said looks a lot like the Windies at the start of their fall from grace! At least Windies can look forward to another team like them soon~
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So the poms are all whingeing away,
As their team has another bad day,
Yet the Kiwis aren't great,
So that tells you the state,
Of old Albion's players today.
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I think you die-hard England fans need to get a grip on reality. You just aren't that good and haven't been for a long, long time.
And the patronising comments regarding New Zealand are not welcome nor accurate. In McCullum, Vettori and Oram NZ have 3 players who are the equal of any in the world. Flemming - although on the way out - is undoubted class. Yes, we have lost Bond (ridiculous situation) and a couple of other top performers, but Taylor and How look top drawer. Average county side? Is this the same county system that produced your national side?
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Ok. So we lost. The fourth innings was abysmal, and it looks as if it's back to the drawing board.
I still say - have them sail out, nets onboard, a bit of team building and adventure.
The boys have gone soft.
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i think that you english supporters have every right to be bitterly disappointed,but remember that there are still 2 tests to go.
we kiwis are well acquainted with monumental batting collapses-once things start to go down hill,it is often difficult to stop the rot.
there are some big hearts in the english team-sidebottom and collingwood stand out at present,but i can recall similar stuff from the likes of hoggard and vaughan in the past.
with few genuine world class players (probably only vettori and mccullum),the kiwis showed what team spirit,a lot of grit and a positive attitude can achieve.england too lacks world class players,but looking at the batting averages of the top 6 compared with nz's top 6,it would be foolish to write them off just yet.
they will be hurting and will react accordingly.
unfortunately the fact is that neither team is in the same class as australia or south africa and there's no quick fix for that.
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Re: Michael Nee's comments regarding dropping out of form players.
You mentioned Vaughan, Pietersen and Bell. Are you watch the same game mate? these guys are the best we've got. The problem with this England team is the problem with most of our national teams, we lack heart, the desire to fight and the self confidence to react in a tough situation. We also have players that won one ashes series and got paid way too much praise, got told that they were world beaters and took their foot off the pedal.
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Unless England have "up and coming " players, who threaten the established players, the squad will never get better. Look at Sehwag, a real threat as an opner ... right ??? He was replced by Uthaapa !!! Sehwag didn't play in any of the Finals against the Australians !!! Zaheer Khan, who terrorized England last summer, will find hard to find a place in the playing 11 against SA, although he is unfit at present, but even he wasn't, his place is far from secure.
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Harmison has come in for a great deal of criticism here - and most of it is justified. We are looking at a once good (sometines bordering on great) bowler who was capable of accurately delivering at 90 plus but now struggles to deliver consistantly at 80 minus. My question is: what culpability does Otis Gibson share in this? Was it the bowling coach's decision to turn a wayward fastie into a mediocre medium pacer? Perhaps as a last resort? I am not aware that Harmy is carrying an injury so why hasn't Gibson done the technical analysis and worked on correcting his man in the nets? Provided his head is up to it, Harmison with a decent coach should be able to sort out the problem relatively quickly.
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England lost the game in their 1st innings. Had they scored at a mere 1 run per over more they would of probably had a lead (mind you that's only 3 per over).
A lot of you fail to point out NZ actually played well.
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Can we finally move on from Harmison now?
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Ok I have read enough and I must say as a Kiwi it takes me back a few Months to the Rugby World Cup.
Oh how we vented our spleen at the Referee, The Coaches the rotation system but on the day its up to the Players to perform and ,they did not just like we didnt in the Rugby.
I think there are three main things wrong with the Team at the Moment I will try and summarise them.
1) Reading and Believing the English Media please visit www.stuff.co.nz look fo the blogs find the cricket blog and they have every condescending comment by the English Media and there are many of them about the New Zealand Team prior to this match.Some were very Patronising to say the least.
2) Team spirit something is wrong in the team it isnt Jelling. Players arent playing up to their own abilities almost like they are over coached and have had their flair knocked out of them.That pitc hwas pretty good and they should have easily been able to exceed two runs per over
3)Your Batting line up you dont have four players that can score quickly and put pressure on a bowling attack.You dont have a genuine all rounder there at the moment with Flintoff not playing it affects the whole balance of your team.England bats to six if your lucky.New Zealand bats to eight.
I just want to say if we were going to win one it would be the first we might surprise you because of all the Media Beat up.
I expect your guys to win one and the series be drawn.
One thing all of you over there can be proud of is your Cricket Fans they are the best sporting Fans in the World an aboslute credit to your Country and this wonderful game ,and we love having them here.
The Sun will come up in the Morning the Stars will be out at night and your cricket team will come good theres to much Talent there not to they just need more self belief.
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Hi, Paul from ±«Óãtv Sport:
You argue, in response to my earlier comment (#6), that it is not the coach who should be blamed for on field performance, but the players. But how then would you judge the performance of the coach if not by the on-field performance of the team?
Given that 9 or 10 of team are underperforming you have to ask what is wrong with the team environment that is culturing these poor performances. Ultimately, the men responsible for that team environment and ethos must be the coach and captain, and if they can't elicit a change in player behaviour and mindset (as seems to be the case from the increasing run of poor performances that we have observed in the last 12 months) then they are not doing their jobs as motivators/leaders/advisors.
The analogy with football managers is disingenuous because typically football teams' problems stem from a lack of quality players - hence sacking the manager is largely ineffective (i.e. the manager can only work with what they have). Your argument might be fair enough if we were talking about Bangladesh sacking Dav Whatmore as coach, but in the England cricket team's case we know the problem is largely due to the team underperforming.
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"Pathetic".
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Ah the whining and gnashing of teeth that is going on here!
Seriously a little analysis would show that each subsequent innings in this test produced fewer runs and scoring quickly became more difficult as the match wore on. This says to me that the side who batted first had quite an advantage.
Having said that, the team who gains that advantage by winning the toss still has to capitalise on their good fortune. NZ were able to do that, and do it very well.
I am a NZ'er and a huge cricket follower and have been for years - long enough to be able to look at this result without the rose coloured glasses on. As I see it, England are still the better test playing side, and I imagine will prove that in the coming matches. However the two teams are close enough that if one gets any advantage via conditions or other such influences, the result could go either way. Naturally I was elated that NZ was able to get home in this last match, but I firmly believe that had England won the toss and batted first there would have been a different result. (NZ would have needed only 4 days, not 5 – Ha-ha! joking, of course).
If I were coaching England, I would not be dropping players wholesale with the exception of perhaps Harmison who does appear to be a shadow of his former self - with the lack of pace, I wonder whether old injuries are still troubling him. You don't drop 10mph off your pace without a reason. I liked the look of Broad in the one-dayers, so maybe he will come in.
I have to mention the exploits of Ryan Sidebottom. He is the sort of player I like to watch in action. Gritty and down to earth, he barrels into the crease with good aggression, intent and accuracy. He also seems like a good sportsman, ready with a wry smile rather than a tantrum when events don't go his way. From the first one-day match he played earlier in the series, I knew he would be a major threat to the NZ batsmen for the rest of the summer - particularly in the tests. A class act. Had the recent result been a draw, he would have surely been named player-of-the-match.
There is altogether too much doom and gloom going on. Some of it I'm sure is knee-jerk reaction that the authors may later regret. The comments that the English lacked spine/effort etc are harsh. Surely you don't believe that the players are not trying their damndest? No-one wants to lose.
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We cricket lovers here in NZ really do rate quite a few of your players,We are delighted to see the back of Pietersen
(doesn't look quite right,sorry)and Collingwood and Sidebottom is held in very high Esteem.
If anyone wants to pick an England Team for the next two Tests bear in mind The Basin is a bouncy little number and Napier is as fast as anything on the Planet- The Rawalpindi Express and Brett Lee both have done 160k there.So exciting times ahead,especially if you're not that flash off the back foot
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Just taking note that there was several comments about aggers remarks on Monty.
I do think Aggers is right and to be honest I think Monty would take it on board because you can see he is the sort of person who wnats to learn.
YOu can see that in the way his fielding and batting have improved.
My comment is has Aggers actually gone and spoken to Monty about it?
I would think Monty would listen - so come on Aggers go and have a chat to Monty.
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Well done the kiwis, so much for aggers predictions before the test....
As for Paul from Gloucester, I think its England that are at best a county side..!!!!
Roll on 2nd test...!!!!
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It is incredibly arrogant to continually turn up on tour, play a couple of mickey mouse warm up games and expect all of your players to be fit and it form.
Bowlers like Hoggard and Harminson need plenty of overs under their belt before they reach their best.
New Zealand are a well drilled side but their should not be humiliating us. This was an accident waiting to happen.
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Aggers - you are right! Harmison 12th man, Broad in. Probably Shah in Strauss out next test. Hoogie had a bad last match but stay with him next match. England lost due to 3 things, Hogg and Harm gifted NZ too many runs and only 2 wickets between them (these 2 bowlers headed the test bowling rankings 2-3 years ago). England underestimated the NZ quality, but that's typically England. The 2nd innings batting was woeful and batsmen just lost it in the mind. It needed a Geoff Boycott to hang around. No one got the job that day!
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Oh dear. There's no running away from this, England are consistently poor and deserve to be towards the lower echelons of Test cricket at present. There is no good saying the squad has talent coursing through it if you lose in the manner they did in NZ.
Very worried about Harmison. 80mph? He's picked for his pace and bounce and I'm afraid he's lost his mojo and doesn't deserve a place at present.
I hope England bounce back but there's little time to sort out where it all went so horribly wrong....
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I enteirely agree with comment 222. In an ideal world, all the players would be sufficiently mentally strong to be self-motivating. I fear this is not the case with the England cricket team, who need strong leadership. I don't think the current leadership provides this. Moores' main qualification seems to have been the success Sussex achieved under his managagement. However, quite frankly, this experience irrelevant to test cricket. If Moores'comments to the team are on the same level as his comments to the media, I indeed feel sorry for the team. One problem is he seems to have such low aspirations for the team-he is always talking about "learning" and the team's progress being a "journey"-anyone would think from these comments that were one of the bottom-ranking test nations!
Another problem is that the selectors persist on picking certain players on past reputation (the memory of the Ashes 2005 persisting) and ignoring current form and fitness. This is totally unfair both on theindividual and the team. It must also be highly demotivating for fringe payers in form to know that they are likely to lose or not gain a place in the test side to an individual who has no current form behind him-so much unlike the Australians! So let's have proper competition for test places!
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I agree that the bowler named Shreck would be an inspired selection, we need players that are used to working hard and can improve themselves. He fits the mould.
'Have to say I'm surprised that Mr Hoggard didn't seem to be 'in the groove', it's not really his style. Is he injured?
I would also lay off the personal attacks on Harmison, remember he did not pick himself. I am sure he would rather be a home.
Who are the selectors for this tour? What thought process have they using to pick players that are ring rusty and/or not at their best. I see no logic in the selection of Strauss and Harmison. Did Hoggard play with the England Lions? What has Anderson done to justify this continued selection. When this set of players cannot even display decent country performances how on earth can they be expected to 'bowl over' a test side. Take a look at how the aussies/sa/sri/pak bowlers fair in county cricket, they regularly bag 6/7/8 wickets per match. No English player is capable of this feat.
I feel what this team would be improved by a large factor by having one world class bowler in it's ranks. When is the last time England possesed such a player? I am afraid to say that the last to fit into this category was the ebullient Bob Willis.
Another solution would be to investigate if Shane Bond is willing to trade his new Indian passport for a British one.
Send out Willis on a talent spotting trip to find the next Bob Willis. We need some nastiness in our 'attack'.
What a rant!
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Re. comments 5 and 6 above (Michael and Matt):
How nice it must be for you to sit there and say, "Sack Moores", "Take the captaincy from Vaughan", "Drop this player, that player, the other player". Why don't you try suggesting alternatives? The fact of the matter is, England had a very poor game (one or two players aside) but the reactionary attitude in this country makes me sick.
I agree that Harmison should not be playing and I would play Broad in his place. Broad has work to do, but is young and has an excellent attitude (something very much needed). Shah could come in for Strauss, but I don't see any other possibilities (neither do you, hence the lack of suggestions).
Every player needs to be playing for their place in the team, but the only time pressure can be put on them in this way is during a home series when there isn't the restriction of a touring squad to choose from. Then you can select the players in form on the county circuit.
Vaughan remains one of the finest captains in world cricket. Ironically, the other at the top of the list isn't even captaining anymore (Stephen Fleming).
As for another suggestion (somewhere above) that all England needed to do was block for a day - have you ever played cricket, or watched a few games? As a batsman, if you are one dimensional in that way it allows the fielding team to attack without concern. If you don't play an attacking shot, there's no need for any fielders to prevent it. Sooner or later the batsman will make a mistake and the more fielders in attacking positions the greater the chance of getting out.
England needed a positive attitude - the way Bell played. Go over the top occasionally, don't let the spinners settle. The result may well have been the same, but being all out for 200 - 250 would at least have been respectable. I never have a problem with the team losing attempting a win.
England need to do one thing more than anything else. Get back to enjoying their cricket. Believe in themselves and find the passion that playing for your country should bring.
Just had one other selection idea. If the next pitch is remotely similar, or truly prepared to assist spin, how about selecting Swann instead of Harmison? Are England brave enough to select two spinners? I doubt it, but would love to see it.
All the best England.
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harmison doesn't have the mentality of an international sportsman. he seems to lack any sort of drive, hunger or ambition that is so evident in other fast bowlers (Mcgrath, Donald, Lee, Pollock). He definitely needs to have his contract torn up and sent back to the counties for a few seasons... i am sure the loss of £250k per year may bring him back to the real world.
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Any fule kno that Roy of the Rovers was in Tiger, not Dandy or Beano. Really, Geoffrey - and you a former chairman of Melchester Rovers, too!
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To all of the above who have said the problem with Englans is psychological - spot on!
Look at their body language - it's negative. What's going on between their heads echos this.
These guys have technique, they can bat, they can bowl - we all know that.
But without the mental toughness - you're half beaten.
No joke - bring in someone like Paul McKenna to sort the guys out.
McKenna's got RESULTS with people with far greater issues than our guys so why not give him a go.
Or it's a case of ....do the same old things and get the same old results.
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Maybe, just maybe, now we will stop harping on about the ashes in 2009 to the (patronising) exclusion of all the other series of cricket to play between now and then. Get the team sorted now, concentrate on the next game. Also - can we at least acknowledge that new zealand played well?!
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Totally pathetic Scrap now the central contracts they dont deserve the huge sums.Their county should pay a salary and IF they are chosen to play for their Country then the ECB should pay for travel etc AND only pay a match fee IF they are FIT and can do the job.Management is useless with too many backroom hangers on.Demote MV on 300K nice Bardados pad why bother to play cricket? Colly for captain.Oust Strauss.Oust Harmison.Keep Hoggy at least he grafts. KP is resting on his laurals.The fire has gone out due to stardom and cash. Whose idea that a dietitian is needed? These are supposed to be grown men but of course they are acting like kids with their performance so must be treated as such. Did anyone notice KP waiting to go in YAWNING his head off.Looked so bored "do I really have to go in" This was about lunchtime says it all.And how can MV and KP laugh their heads off watching the demise in front of them they showed they DO NOT have their souls in the right place.Usual pitiful blah blah stuff from MV. Bank accounts looking good though WELL DONE RYAN AND BELL. Out you go Moores here's your P45. How about reduced payments for lousy performance.Time to weald the big stick
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Typically, there are few comments in here with any credit to New Zealand and the way they approached the game. England lost the test from the coin toss - it was almost as if, as being the case, if they couldn't bat first, they were going into the match with the mindset that it was only ever going to be a draw. Nothing wrong with the pitch - New Zealand reached their total with a more than acceptable run rate. Despite the Ryan Sidebottom hat-trick - and hats off to that man - they were always confident that they had the upper hand, and when they declared, with a handy, but definitely not insurmountable lead; hell 80 odd overs to get 300 on a flat track is, I would think, especially doable - the declaration basically gave England the final pyschological blow - Vettori and co: "We've got enough in the bank to bowl you out". Which is exactly what they did. To quote Andrew Strauss, New Zealand's "samey attack" had the balls, along with Vettori and his field placements, to tear England - who showed no intent of even going for a win - apart. Martin has been quicker than Harmison on this tour, and Mills was superb. Majestic win for the boys, the reign of Vettori has truly begun :)
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As a kiwi, I am pleasantly surprised by this result, having picked an England series win. And for these reasons:
- NZ lacks experience and has a brittle batting line-up in particular. At some stage we will collapse.
- We miss Bond (even if we didn't in Hamilton)
- England have a number of proven performers at the top level and a stronger batting and bowling line-up on paper.
BUT, one side has exceeded expectations by playing determined and tenacious cricket under strong leadership and the other has woefully underperformed thanks in part to an overly defensive mindset.
These sides will meet for 6 tests this calendar year and I will be surprised if England eventually don't come out on top. But for now, Harmison may need to be dropped. I'd get Simon Marcus in there
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Think people here are a bit quick to start saying drop Ambrose bring back Prior. Ambrose kept well and got a 50 in his first test innings. There are more obvious problems with the rest of the team. Broad in for Harmison gives us an extra bowler (Harmy only bowled a few overs 2nd innings) and strengthens the tail (which is still shockingly poor) The fact the Strauss is brought back after being dropped and then playing no games shows that England are lacking in people knocking on the door.
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I lost interest and repect for the England set-up quite a while ago now. I don't have Sky and i won't be going to watch any matches until such time that they have proven that they have a clue what they're doing. Harmison and Anderson should be long forgotten by now. Broad and another up and coming bowler should have several test matches under their belts, Shah should have been given a good run in the team in Strauss' absense. It's all common sense, that even someone with half a brain could have arrived at. And they wonder why people don't get interested (and stay interested) in cricket. So long England Cricket, i won't miss you.
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Steve Harmison
Why does the entire thinking about Harmison revolve around the assumption that he, and he alone is responsible for the decline in his performance?
Why is it taken for granted that the collective, the team, is something that must be treated as absolute; that it is the responsibility of individuals to adapt and fit in with this collective; that failure to do so is a weakness that causes all other attributes to be irrelevant; and that it's a ridiculous idea that maybe better results could be obtained by the collective being more prepared to accommodate the variety of the individuals?
There's a colossal amount of ability wasted by sidelining and writing off talented individuals who are not good rule-followers. We kid ourselves if we think we can maximise achievement if we select only "good team men".
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Oh, one last point. England's success in the 2005 Ashes was brought about by the aggression in the second test when our bowlers roared in and expected wickets, and our batsmen went after the bowling and scored at 4 an over. When did tepid cricket ever bring results? (even in Australia when we scored a massive total with Colly getting a double hundred we still lost). Boring, tepid, unfocused, unorganised is how we've been since 2005. We had the right approach back then. How short are people's memories that we've slipped back into our old ways? I know i could do a better job.
Idiots.
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A really dismal performance by England in a game in which NZ dominated for 4 days. Well, if I do not count the English media who claimed that Day 1 was a great day for England.
If I recall, Aggers comment before the test match was that NZ was a team "ripe for the taking". In spite of a couple of their best players out there in India for the T20 games, NZ still took the fight to England and had a confidence to declare and back it up with a win. England's ICC test and one day rankings truly reflect its current state, which to put it quite bluntly, is that England is poor in all forms of the game and can only consistently challenge BAN and ZIM and WI on some given days.
Of course, Vaughan's comments were expected, at least they are a little better than Collingwood's who makes me laugh everytime he speaks. We all know that there is a "lot of spirit" in the dressing room and thats why their performance is so poor. Not sure what the excuse is going to be this time around. Lack of practise? Reached NZ too late? Pitches not to their liking? Harmy's boots? Hoggy's breakfast? And of course my favorite - T20 leagues in India. Aggers really takes the cake there hinting that the T20 leagues are taking the attention away from Test cricket and hence England performed poorly. Hey Aggers, no English player is playing the T20 and frankly none of them are really that exciting.
I see people arguing about Prior and Ambrose, and all the other 7-8 wicket keepers, but the point remains that ALL of them are bits-and-pieces players who will get exposed at the international stage. Other than 2-3 of the current squad and a couple of young exciting players the rest should go back to county cricket or check if they can make it to the second or third round of auctions out there in India so that they can continue their cricket careers.
England may well and truly bounce back in the next couple of tests, but this dismal performance shows that a team who had a chance to do well in NZ blew it big time and they have only themselves to blame.
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1) If we had prepared professionally and played hard we would of had the team resources to beat NZ in this test. Even if we had played well NZ still would have been hard to beat. I believe we had a good chance of an away series victory if we had applied ourselves. We didn't. A real arrogant, negative performance. Only by working hard, preparing professionally then playing with a bit of confidence in your ability and a determination to win will England have a sniff in this series.
2) Forget about Flintoff, Tresco & S Jones. Only when they are available to England (if ever) should they come into the equation.
3) We seem to have lost our way in team selection. The competitive arena of getting in the England set up seems to be lost. Example - Strauss, gets dropped, quite reasonably in my view and Vaughan replaces him as opener - obvious selection. At this point Shah, a promising batsman, should be told he will be given a good run in the side to prove his worth. Strauss should then go with the view he won't play for England until he proves his form. This didn't happen, Strauss is re-instated without proving anything. A 'he use to be successful, let's hope he's successful again' attitude.
There have been numerous occasions where established players have got the nod to come back into the side without proving their form. Harmison is another, Flintoff too, what must Broad, Tremlett, Onions etc be thinking. A player, no matter who, should prove his fitness, desire and form to teturn to the England fold.
I'm getting sick and tired of English sportsmen, a bunch of overpaid, weak willed, arrogant idiots.
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Matt (message 223) - thanks for your response. Whether Peter Moores has the ability to coach successfully at international level is, of course, a legitimate topic for debate. The main point I'm trying to make, however, is that players don't take enough responsibility for poor performances. This applies to football, rugby etc etc as well as cricket. In football and rugby, however, the manager/coach decides the tactics with input from the captain, in cricket the significance of those roles is reversed.
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I think a lot must be blamed on the central contracts system. A good system in theory but with the existing players a gravy train for the out of form and in some cases downright mediocre.I would scrap the system, make the players earn their right to play and be paid like any other job in this world.I also think it has been divisive as some are in and some are out and you cant expect team morale to be high expecially when those that are in are performing lamentably.
Lets face it, in world cricketing terms New Zealand are a very workaday team.
England are now way behind Australia and India from a "talent that performs" point of view.
Lets get back to basics and get players who want to play for their country and are prepared to work for it not a group of rather ordinary "freeloaders" working a systems that has proved to be not only unfair on individuals but totally counterproductive for English cricket
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A number of comments on the world status of the NZ bowlers appears to me to be off the mark. The top Test Match bowler playing in this test was Hoggard (England for those that didn't pick that during the test) at 11th, second was Martin (NZ) at 12th, Vettori (NZ) 19th, Panesar (Eng) 21st. Take also into account that Patel is only in his second test so ranking is worthless and Mills is 5th in the ODI Bowler rankings. Try to not work off perceptions, do so on fact. By the way, that would have to be the most focussed 5 days of cricket I have watched in a number of years, at least by one team. England didn't know what hit them, bring on the next two!
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To Agnew, Boycott, Botham, and all the rest of the cynical, jaded commentators and journalists on the media gravy train. I hope you are satisfied! You were all largely responsible for whipping up dissatisfaction and forcing out Duncan Fletcher after the last Ashes series, and the current shambles is the result. What did Fletcher actually do wrong? He had two poor series, Pakistan and Australia away, oh yes, and he refused to allow you, the media, to select his team, by not picking your little darling Chris Read. You wanted him out because he wouldn’t play your games. He wouldn’t pander to your need to fill column inches.
Well now you have got what you want. A media friendly, approachable nobody, who always turns up for press conferences, and says all the right things, unfortunately, the only thing he lacks is the ability to coach an international cricket team. I’m sure the ECB are happy, after all, Moores would have come a lot cheaper than Fletcher, but at what cost to the English game?
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if one of you could set aside you hypocrisy for a moment, admit you were wrong, and declare, “Come back Duncan, all is forgivenâ€. Obviously it won’t happen, but deep down I think you are now all realising that England would have been far better off sticking with Duncan Fletcher.
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I think it was last summer that Bearders did an analysis of Steve Harmison's bowling figures. The analysis showed that, apart from an exceptional spell in 04/05, Harmimson was playing at about the level he had always played at.
So maybe Harmison is doing his best, and it is his 'best' that is no longer quite good enough?
NZ clearly 'took the positives' from a series win in the ODI's and worked, and scrapped, hard as a team to win the test. Well played NZ!
The real comparison of the two sides won't be possible until after the tour here in UK summer. If NZ win on their 'tracks' and we win on ours, maybe it is 'horses for courses'?
Having said all that, I think the England cricket team and tour staff are complacent, and that central contracts and 'dressing room power' are ruining the chances of any other players getting into, or staying in, the team. There are too many players who are getting a run out based on what they once did (or even did once!), and not on what they can do for England today.
C'mon England! I can't afford too many lost nights sleep listening to you performing worse that a schoolboy side.
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Aggers you are talking rubbish with regards to Monty. You said that Monty was outbowled by Vettori, even though not neccesarilly disagreeing with this comment, Monty did take 1 more wicket than vettori in the match. Ok it was only 1 more and for a few more runs but you have to remeber when Vettori was bowling, england had already set there sights on a draw (in the first innings) according to you! Therefore, they had no intention of getting after Vettori and just allowed him to bowl how he liked and where he liked. New Zealand went at well over 3 and a half runs per over in both innings, with Monty's induvidual economy at just over two and half runs in the first innings and just over 3 in the second, when New Zealand were on the charge. Meanwhile, Englands run rate throughtout the match was languishing at just over 2! Furthermore, Vaughan showed obvious lack of confidence in Monty (shown by his negative field placings and at times bizzare and unrealistic placings e.g three men in short on the off side, pretty much doing the same job.. POINTLESS!!!!)
On the other hand, being captain allowed Vettori to set his own field placings and bowl for as long as he liked!
Taking this all into consideration i feel Monty bowled just aswell as Vettori considering the circumstances.
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Aggers is generally a good judge but I feel he's being somewhat generous in regard to England's abject performance/s.
The problem (also look at England Rugby) is management management management.
Look at the achievements under Fletcher and Woodward (hopefully Capello who seems to be non nonsense coach will bring success)
Nothing wrong with the players - we have an abundance of great talent in all these sports and none more so than England Cricket.
Moores needs to follow Ashton through the exit door and we need inspired choices to lead our teams; goodness knows - the long suffering wholehearted supporters deserve something better than the tripe being served up!
What's wrong with Beefy or Gooch or Nass who would no doubt "manage" with enthusiasm respect and no short amount of skill!!A decent coach/manager would surely be able to get better from Harmy....
In rugby, please let Ashton go - the only reason we got to the WCF was through the players almost causing a mutiny - the poor guy is seriously bereft of motivational skills.
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Strauss and Harmison are in very different situations in my opinion so it troubles me to see that they're being lumped together as scape-goats.
i think Strauss is a brilliant player and should be in the England team if fit. besides, it's pretty clear to see there are other more important factors contributing to England's current sorry state.
but if you're comparing returns from this match - Strauss looked untroubled for most of his first innings 43 and then got a total jaffa in the second innings. Vaughn played two pretty terrible shots.
there's nothing that hasn't already been said about Harmison but let's hope it's obvious to those that matter that he really shouldn't be in the team, for his sake if not for England's...
i believe that Broad for Harmison will go a long way to balancing this team out in the short term. Vaughn and Moores should go before the summer. Strauss for captain, Graham Ford for England coach.
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I completely agree with comment 250 by Gordon. NZ's bowlers are actually quite good and more importantly, continue to improve. For some reason England's ex players, media and supporters seem to continually over rate their players. The fact is that in the modern era, England and NZ are pretty similar in criketing terms. I'm sure that over the last 10 to 15 years the head to head stats probably back this up with a slight edge in test cricket to England and an advantage to NZ in ODI's.
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Before putting my views on record I closely studied englands performance,taking Sidebottom aside,this was village green cricket,by England,as per my previous comments we lack crisis batsmen ie an Atherton,or a boycott,this is simply due to the state of the modern game,unfortunately there is no room for a defensive style batsmen.I recently attended a under 13's coaching class,and ended up in a heated debate,regarding batting techniques,and I was told ther is no room for my style of batting in todays game.this was reflected by a total emphasis on scoring off every ball,it therefore comes as no surprise that this approach has made its way to the highest form of cricket.Looking at England,we are rapidly becoming flat-track bullies,we do not have a class first strike bowler and I am not so sure Monty can contain batsmen the Vettori way.We all love attacking cricket,but within any class team there is a definitev requirement for a batsmen with the ability to close it down for ten or more overs after the fall of quick wickets.Let us realise what are current team is and lets see a return to basics,with batsmen being able to defend as well as attack.
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Yes the recent loss is very disappointing, but it seems many of your correspondents have short memories – the team were playing at their very best in 2004 – when they won, was it 10, matches in a row, and with many of the present squad?
The confidence from this allowed them to beat SA away, and to overcome the loss of Lord’s 2005 to win the Ashes 2-1 and, as it turned out, to be on top at the end of both the remaining drawn matches. The loss to Pakistan in 2005-6 was a reversal, but 2006 (including the Strauss captaincy period) was still a good period.
However, it seems that, since Adelaide, there is a crisis of confidence when facing a target on day 5, and it is not clear how this can be reversed. Chasing down just such a total the next time would make a huge difference, but as we saw in 2004, and with the Aussies since 2005, success breeds more success, and, of course, the converse is also true. These are not bad players, but their collective belief has been weakened.
I cannot understand the clamour to get rid of Strauss – his catching was badly missed in Sri Lanka (as was Flintoff’s). Yes it looks as if Harmison has to go, but I agree with others, the loss of Troy Cooley has proved to be critically short-sighted, and it seems Peter Moores is no Fletcher.
Small things can make a big difference – Steve Bucknor’s non-raised finger at Lords versus India last summer, may have changed the tenor (and result) of the whole series, (and why did England not request him to stand down?)
Getting two fresh fast bowlers into the team would make a huge difference, but are they out there (Jones and Flintoff?) If not we have to start preparing pitches to suit, as do most other countries.
The other problem is the return of 6 out – all out; this was the problem per-Fletcher, and he sorted it; who would not play Ashley Giles now if he were fit!
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As an NZer living (happily) in the UK, I think the English players need to be careful about handing perfect motivational material to sides like NZ (and like Scotland in the rugby...). When the English players and ex-players talk so much about how superior England are, and how this tour is really about building for the Ashes, and how NZ is equivalent to a reasonably competent county side, they give the NZ players a perfect reason to run in and bowl every ball like their careers/professional pride is on the line.
I agree with the substance of the comments that NZ cricket lacks depth, and that on paper this England team ought to beat this NZ team comfortably, but the game isn't played on paper, and handing the opposition ideal motivation for one of the most demanding mental battles in sport is a very questionable strategy. A little more respect might make England both more welcome guests and more likely winners.
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Cook
Vaughan
Strauss
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Mustard
Broad
Panesar
Sidebottom
Hoggard
Convinced that in the current make up of the side Colonel is a better bet than Ambrose
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Well, I said on Day 2 or 3 on one of the blogs that this might be another Adelaide and I was right. Hopeless absoultely hopeless but in a way was the collapse so surprising...as when NZ went for it in the last session they lost 7/95 going from 50/1 at tea to 145/8 at the close.
I still think we have not recovered from Adelaide 2006, that left real mental scars.
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England Management Team should send Stephen Harmisson home immediately for his own and well-being.
Harmisson has on numerous tours not enjoyed being a tourist. He obviously misses his young family and the comfort they bring appears to be as much as a distraction when he is away from them
Once home he should then only play for Durham for the entire summer, and should not be considered for selection until next year. He would also have to forfeit his England Central Contract
I believe Harmisson may very well retire from all forms of cricket completely within the next two years, as his confidence is so fragile. His temperament leads to such a bought of nerves that constrict him so helplessly that in a lunch break during this Test Otis Gibson had to walk him through his run up. This occurred before, in Perth, Australia on a previous Ashes series under Duncan Fletcher.
A performance like this puts Harmisson under the glaze of publicity. A further disappointing performance in this test match only goes to alienate him even more, and damages his fragile state of mind.
Harmisson was a great bowler who reached his pinnacle in the West Indies in 2004 but now appears to be a casualty to pressure of top-flight sport.
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I don't have anything to add to any of the current woes of the English Team. I do though think Harmison NEEDS to be sent home forthwith and not just dropped. Is there another round of central contracts for this summer or were the last lot based on a wholed year? If so then he should not be awarded one. See if the (relative) financial hardship concentrates his mind. I he still earns far more than myself though just playing for Durham.
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As a NZer trawling through these comments I find them equally laughable and offensive. Everyone who said it's embarassing to lose to NZ really sums up the problem with your players - Most of your country is a)deluded about how good you are and b) know nothing about your opposition.
NZ do not have a lot of individual world beaters but as a team have risen as high as 3rd in your much revered rankngs - without Shane Bond as he has spent more time on the sidelines with injury than Flintoff. Do you see us strutting around like we are the 3rd best team in the world just because once some calcualtions said we were? The ranking you seem to take as gospel reflect reality about as much Steve Harmisson's bowling average.
I want to hear one English person swallow your pride, face reality, and say you were comprehensively beaten by a better team.
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How refreshing and exciting to see a team devise and implement tactics to win a test match. When NZ were batting on the last day Nasser Hussein expressed the view that he didn't think they had enough runs in the bank and that he would have batted until it was beyond question! This negative fear of failure approach advocated and employed by Nasser demonstrates why England will never operate consistently at the top levels in World Cricket!
Did anyone else notice the smiles and smirks on the faces of the England players as they sat in the Pavillion as they collapsed to defeat. Good to see that they take such a poor performance seriously
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The team are totally without confidence, and if they get out of this mess with a drawn series they will be delighted!!
How Harmison gets away with his 'domestic' routine time after time, and then bowl dross is beyond comprehension.
However, ask yourself, would Moores or Vaughan raise your spirits? Could either of them deliver an 'up and at 'em' speech?
It would be like casting John Major to play Winston Churchill!!
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The England cricket team are a disgrace and an embarrasment. Their is a thread of arrogance and complacency running through the team.
Players who consistently fail to come up with the goods are rewarded with a permanent place in the team. Steve Harmison is a busted flush who should be dropped from the side. Owais Shah deserved his place ahead of Andrew Strauss. Pieterson is not delivering the goods.
Lets start picking players who have the determination and desire to make their country proud.
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Cant to that, Dont you realise that we are the greatest cricketing nation in the world. The sooner you little nations understand this and realise that all we have to do is turn up to win games, and you are not allowed to play well and beat us the better. No we dont have to respect you as we are better than you, No we dont have to do our home work, No we dont have to check out the pitch to see if it will take spin or wont take bounce. You must produce wickets that suit us, and wickets that we are used too. Heaven forbid when we have to tour another country you produce a wicket that suits your team. Don't you read all the PR hype that surrounds our players we are the best
You must respect us your Mother country
By joe dont you know that any of our county cricket teams is better than most countrys national teams.
Dont you locals understand this
;)
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All those calling for England to bat more aggresively- are ignoring the poitn that KP apart, the England battign line-up in composed entirely of players who don't hit the ball that hard, and who rely on timing. People go on about the 2005 Ashes- ignoring the fact that Englands two most attacking players in that series, Tresco and Flintoff, have gone: probably for good. And ironically they have dropped Prior, a boundary hitter, and replaced him with another nurdler in Ambrose. Criticise the players all you want- but how about an element of realism as well?
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The Kiwis played well, England were pathetic. Harmison must go for starters. Broad must come in. KP must bat at 3, with Cook and Strauss opening, Vaughan at 4 and bell at 5. Colly at 6. If KP or Strauss fail again then Shar comes in.
If moores or Vaughan talk about positives or not having played enough cricket they must go as well
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Inept, pathetic, hopeless etcetera - no-one expected such a collapse.
I lay the blame on England's method - defensive, scared, negative to the point of batting in geological time - at least the second innings was quick!
The England Team must be imbued with virtues such as freedom, self-confidence and assurance to perform at this level - if you are worried, nervous and fearful of failure - can you give of your best?
I think that 20/20 and the IPL are going to have a huge effect in the next year - bat will come to dominate ball and all-rounders will profit. Let's hope that Luke Wright becomes the next Freddie - we are going to need his qualities.
Can anyone come up with a team of (mostly) attacking all-rounders to beat this one?
Mustard; Wright; Pietersen; Bell; Collingwood; Flintoff; Yardy; Rashid; Mascarenhas; Bresnan; Plunkett/Broad.
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England are going nowhere under Peter Moores, he has instilled a negative atitude to our batting and our bowlers look under prepared. I watched our batsmen shoulder arms to ball after ball outside the off stump, this negative approach only slows the run rate and pressurises the later batsmen into seeing the pitch as a minefield and the bowling attack as leathal. Most of our bowlers couldn't pich two consecutive
balls in the same place, its clear they don't play enough games in the middle to gain any confidence or form.
The captain faces the post match inerviews with the comment " we didn't play too well". to right we didn't play well, we were rubbish. Lets have a bit of fight and positive play from the team, lets go into games with a more positive approach and maybe some sort of game plan, instead of the present half hearted and " lets see what happens approach.
And if things don't improve quickly get shot of those in charge, on second thoughts lets not wait lets do it now, and give ourselves time to build a Ashes winning side. Hope springs eternal
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England have been little short of rubbish since the Ashes win in 2005.
It's not really the fault of any one player, none of them has played consistently on form for far too long.
Unless England win next 2 tests and avoid losing yet another test series, I think it will be time for serious surgery:
a) change the captain? Vaughan lost out to Vettori badly and aint putting the zing in the team any more
b) change Moores? he hasn't been there long, so, no, keep him
c) recognise that so many players just aren't playing with confidence and are not in form. I question also just how much they really want to play for England? You can hardly describe them as hungry to play. So, send them back to County Cricket for 12 months to recharge there batteries, get hungry again and remind us why they are so good. Who are they?
Vaughan
Strauss
Peterson
Harmison
Anderson
Flintoff, yes. Freddie too. How much cricket has he played in the last few years? Naff all
So, who do I think should play for England for the next 12 months?
Collingwood (Captain): he was rubbish in the Hamilton game. But looking at results in the last few years, one of England's best players. Watch him when he plays, he hates losing.
Bell: he does look hungry to play every time he gets on the square. He's actually scoring runs in the test matches and other games consistently too. The 100's will soon come.
Cook: seriously improved his catching, showed he's keen. I think he just needs time
Sidebottom: how good is he at the moment! An in form Enlish cricketer, keep hold of him.
Pannasar: are England management really using his talents to the best? I get the feeling NO!!!!
Ambrose/Mustard: seem ok so far
Shah: those eyes!!!! let him play, he wants it even if he likes running out his team mates
Hoggard: we need his guts, his desire. Hamilton, he was undercooked. But when not injured, one of Englands best in the last few years
Broad: let him play. Talent and hunger. Not easily phased or haunted by bowling 6 6's
Luke Wright: he has talent, hunger, guts, spirit and can rip the heart out of a bowling attack in 30 mins. Please let him play
Swann: he seems like a good bloke. give him a chance to prove it
Mahmood: give me his speed. Who else in English cricket is that fast?
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I really sick of constantly reading people using Simon Jones not playing as an excuse for England's failure. Although a player of immense potential, he has never proved it for England over a consistent basis. Although he was great in Ashes 2005, he has only played 18 matches and has a career average of over 28. He has not played for England for over 2 years. So many of our players have started their England careers off to a flyer e.g. Straus, Harmison and then tailed off later, what makes Simon Jones different?
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One of the current problmes with Team England is exactly that. The attitude is that this is the England team, and it always will be picked from this select pool of around 15 players. They seem to have been chosen a long time ago and those who are proven to be not good enough are still always the backup. The England team is no longer a representation of what is best in the English game, its just a group of guys who are England players rather than county players who play for England.
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Just to bring in a statistical slant on England:
Since the Oval Test of 2005, England have played 27 tests (including the forfeited one vs Pakistan which was classed as a win).
In the 26 completed Tests England have won 7 (1 in India, the rest in England incl. 3 against W.Indies), drawn 8 and lost 11.
This is the reality amidst all the talk of 'positives' - Eng are going backwards at a rate of knots.
If this was converted to a football points system, this means England would have 32 points from 27 games, in other words they would be faced with a relegation fight.
One wonders if the reality will ever dawn all will it take defeats in Bangladesh to see the axe well and truly wielded?
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Failures happen.
Failures to happen to the England Team in a customary way, match after match, series after series, year after year pose a serious concern to every section of the people,team,coach, trainers,management, even for psychologists who may be involved in the team training.
Playing cautiously is different from watchfully.Any match requires watchful play;but to play very cautiously with mind of fear attitude is sickness.This is costing the team and the players the match, individulal achievement,prestige. Every time after the failure players come up with the idea,'we will bounce back and show our character mean nothing.The history of a series of failures for quite a number of years in matches against Test playing Nations had witnessed to what we witness now. The psychologists with the individual players have to sit and figure out the reality of their mental set up and rebuild base confidence and to have the right set up of mind and attitude to play every type of game of cricket.
The fact a good bowler Steve Harmison to bowl 80km us abnormal; his speed is 90km. That means he is trying to bowl on the spot and right places by limiting the speed. But Test arena is not the place for that.He should have done it well ahead of it. To introduce J. Anderson is something the management is chaotic.A bowler who bowls few overs gives away a lot of runs in the past three or four years of matches mean managementlacks ideas or resource.
anton.j.
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I think everyone should stop being so negative and look at the positives to come out of this match and series so far.
For example all the boys have had a great holiday, seeing sights and swimming in the sea, partying late and doing the conga.
On a cricketing front, everyone brought their own bat. What else can you expect?
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Those who are asking for Mascarenas and Wright are barking up the wrong tree, neither of these will ever be Test players. With the squad we have out there I am not sure that much can be done. However the length of Englands tail continues to be the major downfall. Broad in for harmy is obvious. Hoggard has been my favourite England player for years but maybe his time has also come? Not sure if Shah for Strauss will actually work but hey, its worth a shot.
Four players came out of this debacle without too much to complain about - Sidebottom and Bell both played their usual games and I haev no complaints. Monty also bowled OK but could have done better had Vaughan put more faith in him. Ambrose kept well but the second innings was a disappoint, although it was not exactly an ideal situation to face on your debut.
A few years ago I really believed we had the best attack in world cricket, not only the front line but strength in depth as well. What happened? Even last summer Anderson, Sidebottom and Tremlett bowled well against India, since then Tremlett has suffered from lack of fire and Jimmy has become obsessed with bowling short of a length.
As much as Ambrose had a good game I feel sorry for Mustard, he did OK in the Twenty20's and ODI's but the selectors are convinced Ambrose is the Test man.
As for the summer, I would like to see Onions, Carberry, Denly and definitely Rob Key considered. Is Rashid ready yet? Looking a few years down the line I hope Steven Finn becomes the bowler Harmison promised to be in 2004/5.
If Freddie got fit he could bat at 8, he is no longer a 6, and that would help. I would not pick this attack but from a batting perpective, improves our tail:
Swann, Broad, Hoggard, Sidebottom or if he gets fit: Flintoff, Broad/Hoggy, Sidey and Monty.
One thing, for all of his batting critics, Monty again hung around a bit, just like he did in Perth.
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England Cricket: Team of Average Players
Strauss:40.34 Batting Avg in 44 matches
Vaughan: 43.42 Batting Avg in 74 matches
Compare that to Damien Martyn: 46.37 Batting Avg in 67 tests
Harmison:31.40 Bowling Avg in 57 test
Mathew Hoggard: 30.50 Bowling Avg in 67 tests
compare that to Javagal Srinath: Bowling Average 30.49 in 67 tests
These are decent averages of good players- there is no greatness in them.
They are three or four levels below the current top line cricketers like Tendulkar,Ponting, Hayden, Lee, McGrath, Warne, Murali Dravid etc.
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County Cricket has produced these players and or turned then into non-attacking/ ahrd hitting players.
So do you really think sending them back down to play in a competition that isnt producing will help?
I wonder if these players have thought about heading overseas and plying their trade say for a season or so in India? Australia? West Indies etc. Yes you and we know you can bat and bowl on wickets in the UK try it oversea.Yes there are some lower grade players doing it, and why? to improve
Another question, Is anyone really that surprised England have come unstuck aren't we used to it? people have said the players shouldn't believe the hype about them, maybe we should also not believe the Media hype and face up to it "not as good as we think we are"
New Zealand are ranked 7th for a reason.......England are ranked 5th for the same reason
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Is my radio playing up??? After such a bad on-field performance and bearing in mind that the 'knives' seem to be out in the media and supporters,the decision to make net practice today voluntary beggars belief.
It makes me wonder whether the go slow first innings was in fact a deliberate response to the criticism in Sri Lanka of being to attacking.
Managers, players and selectors need to be take far more notice as to how their actions are going to interpreted. The long suffering supporters will find it even more difficult to find the inevitable positives that Moores/Vaughan will no doubt continue to find.
Time for Moores, Vaughan, Harmison and Strauss to GO.
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Some say it's a mind game. Fortunately for England, the venerable old game of cricket is not completely played between the ears, otherwise they would be even further down the pecking order of test match nations. The yearning for the good old days of Ashes 05 is merely ignoring that they too were only a mirage. Does anyone else remember how close it was? All the stars had to be in alignment for England then. Sure, we deserved to win but what's the chances of our county system of cricket ever consistently producing quality test match players? I'm afraid that Australia, India and South Africa are the only teams who look capable of winning more than losing. But we're used to it. Stiff upper lip, old chap...too bad the bottom lip is quivering.
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Laptops ? ? ? ?
I was at this match and we were confused by what the coaches actually do behind those laptops that are so much in fashion amongst coaches these days. After such a lame and passionless performance those musings are intesified.
We laughed at how Englands most talented players consistently go downhill once the laptop comes into play. Monty, KP, Hoggard and especially Harmison seem to have suffered since the mighty laptop took control.
Leave the players to play their natural game, the game they were playing when originally selected.
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Amazing how someone like Strauss or Harmison gets opportunity after opportunity, while Shah does well and still gets left out, and you have an amazing batsman in Surrey by the name of Ramprakash who says he wants to play for England again but is ignored. Perhaps bringing Collingwood in as Captain would be a good idea as well.
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Post 280 I think your stats don't make the point you are trying to make.
The more telling stats about Vaughan (apart from the ones I quoted in post 276) reveal that upto his 'annus mirabilis' in 2002 he played 28 Tests and scored 2343 runs in them. Since then he has played 45 tests (e.g. 17 more) and scored 3,043 runs. In other words, in those extra 17 matches he has scored only 700 more runs than in his first 28.
While this record is respectable, it does not show a player hungry to improve his game, rather it shows someone who in batting terms is standing still, or in actual fact going backwards. Has Vaughan become complacent? Too assured of his place? Why did loud alarm bells not ring when he was dropped from the 1 day side? The Australians openly mock our Test & 1 day split captaincy and rightly so - if a player is good enough to play international cricket the format is irrelevant - and if Vaughan isn't upto 1 day standard why is his test place so safe?
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I think England can learn from New Zealnd. This is a team that has always been more than the sum of its parts. Their record against Oz has been good, they thrashed India on India's last tour there; on what basis are they an average side? Perhaps they need to play Bangladesh and WI more often to get their points tally up! Despite retirements/loss to IPL, they displayed great heart and a will to win. We, on the other hand, thought that we had done well on day one when NZ were 282 for 6. That's nearly 300 in a day and we thought that NZ were worse off!
The British media clearly has favourites in the team amd management. It is time that we have the right leadership and took some risks. Brearley showed what leadership was. India showed recently with their 19 and 20 year olds that sometimes you have to take risks.
Finally, I fear that the central contracts, instead of being beneficial, have worked to make these guys superstars who do not feel they need to play for their couny or perform for their country. They get paid anyway.
We need to get the English players out of their comfort zones. No one's place should be guaranteed unless they perform consistently.
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The fundamental problem with England Test performances is one of captaincy. The arrival of Vaughan and his particular style and method of playing the game had an immediate effect on the players which was evident in their body language. In the "one day side" they all played with enthusiasm and positive intent. Vaughan had to leave this team because his scoring rate was so slow at the top of the team we were always faced with an uphill battle. Since his departure we have made some real progress.
Now we have the same style of play with Vaughan and Strauss who were both so negative that the run rate was 2 per over for a huge number of overs. They are both so clearly out of good form that their places should be under consideration. What has happened to Peterson? He used to be a free spirit and set an aggressive tone for the rest of the team. Now he is also a "careful" player and is subjugating his natural game to no really good effect. The tone and style of play by the senior players sets the example for the rest and this is seriously lacking at present.
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I think we are all missing a point here. Though NZ have lost astle,bond,tuffy,cairns,vincent,andreadams and many to ICL and retirement they are still a very very competitive unit at home.
Although England lost a test seris in srilanka,a difficult place to tour and lost a test seris to India (india almost lost the first test) narrowly I would say England can still bounce back.
Anderson should play,he is underestimated a lot and if hoggard gets his act together I think the bowlers can pin the NewZealnders.
Harmi is still playing because of his ashe's exploits and should be requested to re-discover his form in county cricket.
Batting, I think England will easily pick it up.First match in a tour is really difficult.
There has been too much of a toss up with the keepers.Nixon and Read have joined the ICL.No other team in the world has changed the keepers so often.Keeping seems to be one of things heavily scrutinized but Harmi seems to get away with test after test of poor permformance.
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We lose the first test and it appears the world is going to end...289 (and still counting) doom and gloom merchants out in force !
I blame it all on the Daily Mail, a horrible negative read. Anyway must dash....chin up, two more tests to go !
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England need to go back mentally to the place they were in 2004 (on a roll against West Indies and South Africa) as show much more (Freddy) aggression and play their natural game. England have to work out the weaknesses of the NZlanders more, set fields and bowl in good areas of uncertainty. Someone or two in the top 6 needs to find a big score and hundred to set the team up
Other than Broad in for Harmy; if I were Vaughan, I'd be really whipping these England players up into an aggressive frenzy, even Bell, Monty and Cooke!!
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having had time to reflect, i don't know where to start . is hoggy over the hill ? will Harmison ever find consistency? .Panesar and side bottom instill a little more confidence .
The batting also worries me ,whist cook is solid ,he never gets big hundreds, can Vaughan ever get back to top form? Strauss has a lot to do to , this mulling round the 30ish average has to stop ! i love collys tenacity ,but can he score the heavy runs required ? come on pieterson we need some fireworks !! also we are just not the same side without Freddie ,he gives so much balance . but I'm the eternal optimist and predict an England win this week .
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Now we know who should be up there at no2 on the list of test playing nations!!!
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WARNING: If you are a sensitive Englishman the following blog may offend.
It is interesting to observe the under-riding denigratetion towards NZ’s victory in the first test exhibited throughout the comments posted on this website. The sad thing is that most who make these comments don’t even know they are doing it. Even when there is praise directed towards the Blackcaps it comes with a grandfatherly pat on the head.
Whilst considerable criticism has been directed towards England’s failure and rightly so, little acknowledgement has been directed towards NZ’s delivery of the comprehensive lesson to England on how to control the pace of a 5 day test.
All sports teams have bad days at the office so it not my intention to beat my chest, having done so during the Rugby World Cup only to end up with a punctured lung.
Being a Kiwi I have known sporting heartache. I have tolerated the All Blacks being labelled arrogant however when you have a winning ratio in excess of 90% in all tests somehow arrogants is a divine rite.
The English cricket team have not earned the right to be arrogant; but they are, and that makes victory all the more sweet. It is where you are today that will determine your profile not yesterday or tomorrow and today aint looking good.
England has for years wallowed in the past glories of sporting successes. You have been first in a lot of achievements. Roger Banister breaking the 4 min mile only to have an Australian break the world record which two years later was lowered by a New Zealander but never again held by an Englishmen. This does not in anyway diminish Roger Banister’s wonderful achievement but just emphasises that the colonials do it better. Your rugby, football and cricket teams have also had their day in the sun but like most Englishmen never long enough to get a tan.
As an Englishman/woman it should lift your spirits to know that one of your colonial outposts has been taught well by the fatherland: kind of like Tiger emerging from the loins of Earl and all from a population of a London suburb
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The fundamental problem with England Test performances is one of captaincy. The arrival of Vaughan and his particular style and method of playing the game had an immediate effect on the players which was evident in their body language. In the "one day side" they all played with enthusiasm and positive intent. Vaughan had to leave this team because his scoring rate was so slow at the top of the team we were always faced with an uphill battle. Since his departure we have made some real progress.
Now we have the same style of play with Vaughan and Strauss who were both so negative that the run rate was 2 per over for a huge number of overs. They are both so clearly out of good form that their places should be under consideration. What has happened to Peterson? He used to be a free spirit and set an aggressive tone for the rest of the team. Now he is also a "careful" player and is subjugating his natural game to no really good effect. The tone and style of play by the senior players sets the example for the rest and this is seriously lacking at present.
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Paul Grunhill, what rubbish you talk - "A coach is only as good as the the players he has to work with and England don't have a Hayden, Ponting, Hussey Gilchrist, Warne or McGrath." Fletch and Cooley brought out the best in our players - ALan Donald had a major hand in the Sidebottom we're now seeing and Anderson's improvements. Otis Gibson has seen things go from bad to worse. A coach is pivotal in setting the tone in this day and age - and the difference between a side that can win an Ashes series and one that stands aroung looking hapless match after match - and batters who just look as if they're so terrified to lode thier wickets they fail to make runs and (surprise surprise) lose their wickets.
We have agreat squad being totally dispirited by Moore's worthless regime. He is totally out of his depth whcih started to show in Sri Lanka where we scraped through against a side without its most successful spinner!
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Listened to ian bell today here(nz) on radiosport, defending Harmison saying "we are all mates, and we stick together ". well mates or not , harmison is out of form and should be dropped for broad. This is not a chaps team ,they must remember they are representing our country and millions of fan.
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Make Paul Collinwood as captain...Vaughn is good at batting...he is not a leader...bring in some fresh legs in bowling n have decent bench n keep rotating non performing with the bench. Follow india/australia mantra guyz...n please for god sake take that Ashes hang out of your mind...there is more cricket everywhere other then Ashes.
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I saw Stuart Broad wandering down the road with his Dad on the eve of the Hamilton test and he looked a tad glum to say the least, perhaps having been told his services would not be required for the match. Following Harmison's and Hoggard's (to a much lesser extent) abject performances in Hamilton I suspect Broad is itching for a chance and surely the selectors owe it to him and the supporters to put a smile on his face!
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we can analyise this and analyise that, but ultimately those in charge of the national team and a number of the 'chosen ones' out on the field are taking the p1ss - but no one with any clout in the game has got the balls to say so. Those that care about our national team should make a stand. Those ex-players, like Aggers Botham, Hussain, etc, who care, should get together and publically slate the disgraceful state of this god-awful set-up, while the fans, who effecively pay these plonkers wages, should cancel their Sky Sports, and not go to any of the matches in England this summer. Otherwise, cricket in England, will continue to die a long slow death. With the exception of those two years prior to the ashes win, England was rubbish, and yet again, they've quickly gone back to being rubbish, and quite frankly, despite me loving the game, these clowns are not worthy of my time or money.
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The dissappointing downhill slide continues.We've gone from no 2 in the world back now, it seems to the bad old days. It's hard to see a change in fortunes coming soon it seems too many of our players are just completely mis firing. We've no chance,it appears at present of regaining tha Ashes. Maybe Michael Vaughan has taken things as far as he can and its time for a new man at the helm? It's all very depressing
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The problem with the batting is that no-one stays in form for two consecutive innings let alone matches. Therefore the team is always (rightly) expecting a collapse even when its going well. We need someone to go to the crease who everyone can believe in. Even KP is not dependable and Vaughan is just a joke. Our best bets for consistency are Bell and Collingwood, but by the time Colly comes in the collapse has already happened. We need a boring Boycott or Barrington at number 4.
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Roger Bannister's world mile record: Does the writer of comment no 294 not remember the rather more recent and rapid achievements of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram? But there I am, wallowing in the past again.....
As regards interpreting the result in Hamilton, I think that there is no conflict between view (a) that Vettori's team made the best of their talents and the situation and view (b) that England were weakly led, badly organised, and let themselves down. Both are true, and no doubt the truth of (a) was contributory to (b). Since Vettori is going to remain in charge of the NZ team, it is England who have to change their approach. It is fairly unusual for a badly beaten captain to change his approach successfully in a short series, and I would be amazed if Vaughan manages it.
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We simply need 11 men to turn up and play like world class cricketers, backed up by a management and coaching team that know how to prepare them to be their best on the day; to analyse the opposition man by man and scenario plan for every match so that each player knows how they fit into a winning strategy. Then even if they lose it will not involve the abject inexcusable and hapless performances we're seeing time and time again.
It would be nice too if Mr Moores stopped patronising us cricket fans with the kind of nonsense he keeps churning out in interviews. It looks painfully as though while most of us don't buy it, the squad actually do! We have potentially great players in the squad looking like beginners - this is all down to Peter Moores.
A bad coach is like a virus - and this has taken hold with a vengeance.
LIBERATE OUR PLAYERS!
Free Kevin Pietersen - Collingwood is Innocent!
Maybe we should all take to the streets with banners -
NO MORE MOORES, NO MORE MOORES!
What this thread does show though, is there's a heap of passion in the fanbase - but it won't last forever.
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We simply need 11 men to turn up and play like world class cricketers, backed up by a management and coaching team that know how to prepare them to be their best on the day; to analyse the opposition man by man and scenario plan for every match so that each player knows how they fit into a winning strategy. Then even if they lose it will not involve the abject inexcusable and hapless performances we're seeing time and time again.
It would be nice too if Mr Moores stopped patronising us cricket fans with the kind of nonsense he keeps churning out in interviews. It looks painfully as though while most of us don't buy it, the squad actually do! We have potentially great players in the squad looking like beginners - this is all down to Peter Moores.
A bad coach is like a virus - and this has taken hold with a vengeance.
LIBERATE OUR PLAYERS!
Free Kevin Pietersen - Collingwood is Innocent!
Maybe we should all take to the streets with banners -
NO MORE MOORES, NO MORE MOORES!
What this thread does show though, is there's a heap of passion in the fanbase - but it won't last forever.
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Roger Bannister's world mile record: Does the writer of comment no 294 not remember the rather more recent and rapid achievements of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram? But there I am, wallowing in the past again.....
As regards interpreting the result in Hamilton, I think that there is no conflict between view (a) that Vettori's team made the best of their talents and the situation and view (b) that England were weakly led, badly organised, and let themselves down. Both are true, and no doubt the truth of (a) was contributory to (b). Since Vettori is going to remain in charge of the NZ team, it is England who have to change their approach. It is fairly unusual for a badly beaten captain to change his approach successfully in a short series, and I would be amazed if Vaughan manages it.
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Roger Bannister's world mile record: Does the writer of comment no 294 not remember the rather more recent and rapid achievements of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram? But there I am, wallowing in the past again.....
As regards interpreting the result in Hamilton, I think that there is no conflict between view (a) that Vettori's team made the best of their talents and the situation and view (b) that England were weakly led, badly organised, and let themselves down. Both are true, and no doubt the truth of (a) was contributory to (b). Since Vettori is going to remain in charge of the NZ team, it is England who have to change their approach. It is fairly unusual for a badly beaten captain to change his approach successfully in a short series, and I would be amazed if Vaughan manages it.
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Roger Bannister's world mile record: Does the writer of comment no 294 not remember the rather more recent and rapid achievements of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram? But there I am, wallowing in the past again.....
As regards interpreting the result in Hamilton, I think that there is no conflict between view (a) that Vettori's team made the best of their talents and the situation and view (b) that England were weakly led, badly organised, and let themselves down. Both are true, and no doubt the truth of (a) was contributory to (b). Since Vettori is going to remain in charge of the NZ team, it is England who have to change their approach. It is fairly unusual for a badly beaten captain to change his approach successfully in a short series, and I would be amazed if Vaughan manages it.
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