Disjointed England capitulate again
If England were very poor in Wellington on Saturday, they were unspeakably awful here in Hamilton.
Paul Collingwood's players seem to have dramatically lost any semblance of confidence, as illustrated by three more run outs here to go with the three in the opening game.
Collingwood, himself, was run out first ball - looking for a crazy second to third man the very next ball after Ian Bell had been caught behind to his first delivery.
Kevin Pietersen played all round a straight one - which might have been a little on the high side to be adjudged lbw - but it was a poor stroke all the same, and then Ravi Bopara produced the coup de grace.
Alastair Cook had been batting beautifully for his 53 until Bopara prodded Daniel Vettori straight to extra-cover and ran!
Ross Taylor, New Zealand's best fielder, simply moved a yard to left and tossed the ball to keeper Brendon McCullum.
Cook knew he was condemned, and ended up yards short of his crease. To compound it all, Bopara than clipped a slow full toss right down deep square-leg's throat: we are really starting to wonder how deeply Bopara thinks about the game.
England had nothing to bowl at again, and had to attack in order to try and bowl the New Zealanders out.
The first over was a maiden – the next 14 went for 145 runs! The ball flew all around the ground as McCullum and Jesse Ryder set about their target with relish.
Both gave early chances - McCullum to Mustard before he had scored, and Ryder very low to Owais Shah at slip when just eight.
The bowlers then dropped too short through frustration and trying to be aggressive, and Collingwood had no idea where to put his fielders.
So what do England do now? For a start, they have to go back to basics.
These are not bad cricketers - - but seem to have lost sight of the simple essentials of one-day cricket: when you get in, stay in and don’t gift your wicket away. Bat busily and push the fielders hard for singles.
They have to restore their confidence in their running between the wickets which is chaotic at the moment.
It has not been the bowlers' fault that they have been forced into the position of having to bowl New Zealand out - but they have lost sight of the basics of bowling in this form of the game, and must get back into controlled and negative lines and lengths.
Even so, it is very difficult to see quite how England can pick themselves up for the third game, in Auckland on Friday.
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Good god, that was unspeakable. I genuinely wonder what's happened to them... Where is the correlation between the side that beat India and Sri Lanka, and the side that bats like that?
Dimi in for Bopara, but beyond that, I'm not sure.
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What a disgrace. How many chances will we give the likes of Shah and Bopara. New Zealand are struggling to put out a full strength side and we produce two terrible performances. Collingwood has got to lift this team now, or face the consequences.
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Why do i bother getting up yo watch that rubbish? It like watching a club team
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Speaking as a cricket watcher for many years it seems obvious that what has to happen now is that we keep the same team as the last two matches, as they couldn't play any worse. How could Swann and Anderson possibly get worse figures than their combined 14 overs, no wickets for 122 runs. Collingwood has obviously not given them enough bowling to get into their strides. Whatever happens do not bring in Mascarenhas - he is clearly only suited for twenty20 and would almost certainly let the side down.
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Can someone please explain why Mascarenhas is'nt in the team?? He's not picked up an injury has he, does anybody know?
Surely he has to be one of the first names on the team sheet.
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it's a real shame for the boys:
all this cricket interupting their holidays.........
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It might help if they hadn't dropped their best player in the T20 series and then still not recalled him after the drubbing in the first game. The players may have been unspeakably awful, Aggers, but the selectors might want to shoulder some of the blame here too...
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England were totally outplayed at Hamilton and I do not see how they can avoid a 5-nil drubbing. For some inexplicable reasons, visiting teams barring Australia always lose in New Zealand.
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Normally i would try and put constructive comments on this blog. However in all departments today England were RUBBISH. Well below the standard expected from an international team. Consider the recent Australi/India one day intl. Even when the Aussies were dismissed for a low score their bowlers made it as hard as possible for the indians. The bowling today beggered belief. Even Boycott would have been pulling the trigger agianst todays tripe
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England win two twenty20 games and their test captain talks about how split captaincy is working! They would win one game and everyone in the team would talk using words like agression and ruthlessnes! Absolute rubbish. Lets hope they pick themselves up for the test matches.
They would probably win the first test glaot about how prepared they are for the ashes and go on to lose the next two! pathetic
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It goes from bad to worse. It's time to stop the talking (Shah and Collingwood "We'll win this one, same as in Sri Lanka) and, as Jonathan says, get back to the basics. Running between the wickets is not rocket science. Also, admitting errors in team selection after one match, rather than trying to prove themselves right, might help. Bopara just does not have it.
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yep, they're making your job easy, Aggers!
what i saw of England in the field was pretty embarrassing really. Collingwood can hardly call himself an all-rounder these days. his medium-pacers were totally pointlessly inert. and why bowl himself anyway if Bopara, our main allrounder, is standing just over there looking frustrated?!?! also, Colly, field positionings?!?!
McCullum has destroyed much better bowling attacks than the current England one so he was always gonna get his eye in eventually.
please put Mascarenhas in the team, England. look around you! every decent one-day team has got one - Symonds, Oram, Dhoni, etcetc... give us a lower-order slugger PLEASE!
also, still think Mustard is looking pretty good behind the stumps.
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Overconfidence, lack of concentration and a general air of superiority seem to be what characterizes the present English one-day team.
I pretty well always agree with JA but that I should agree with Geoff Boycott twice in a row is surely a sign that all is not well in the English camp.
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3 words to describe England's performance - pathetic, inept, spineless.
There is nothing more to be said.
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The same old story for england cricket
after they triumph in 20/20. everyone thought england had the momentum, but last two one dayers they are pathetic
i think team selection is awful
today the fielding standards have dipped
mascarenhas should play
anderson is awful
pietersen not in good form
very sad to see this type of one side cricket
i hope they come back well in the remaining matches
just need to forget what ever happened
apply basic and win games or atleast get close
competitive cricket is what required now
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How unimaginably bad have we suddenly become after two comfortable wins in the Twenty20s just days before?!?!
Batting, fielding and bowling, all woeful by international standards, as if the curse to never perform at one-day international level remains the only stable element to our performance?
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What was that you said after the first ODI, Aggers?
"I can’t believe that England will play as badly as this again - it would hardly be possible"
Well, believe it! Awful, awful, awful.
Bring back Dimi and Wright, drop Bopara and Shah.
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I can't wait to read the comments from the English supporters after this match. Pitch , conditions, flights, no-practice between games. What are going to be the excuses this time round. The Black Caps (No.3 in the world in the ODI rankings last time i looked) ... although dismissed as average by the majority of English (and a host of NZ) scribes and supporters alike, are proving that although we might not be the best test nation in the world , we certainly can play the 50 over format in a exciting and calculated fashion. The calls for the format to be scrapped because of a perceived boredom in the middle overs , is fairly ironic considering we still play test cricket over 5 days and often still end up with a draw for a result. Could it be that the only reason the English are baying for the ODI formats blood is that they just aren't good at it?? Hmmm something to ponder leading into the 3rd ODI ... an "Average" NZ 2-0 up ... imagine if the English were playing someone ranked 3rd in the world .... then they might really get hammered ... on ya KIWIS
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Agree with Stephen. Shah and Bopara are simply not international quality players. But I'd also add what good is Peter Moores' tenureship as coach doing? Things have not improved in a year and skills, attitude and performance have gone downhill alarmingly. I can't help feeling that the ECB made a Steve McLaren-like decision in appointing him coach.
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what a pathetic performance by england and a delightfull performance by kiwis....
i love to see the way they played and hit the ball hard... that was awesome so goood....macallum n ryder.
nzl desrves to win n england desrves that kind of punishment on poooor performance like that !!!
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hello boys,
well i'm orf to sydney on the 13th of feb, so i will take me boots and stuff and nip over to the lad of the long white cloud and give the boys a hand. i have a very long career in running people out and running myself out, also i can give my wicket up in some of the most bizarre ways so i should fit straight in.
in fact i could bring 10 other players i know who have the same playing style as myself and we could get the game over in double quick time so leaving more fun time.
cheers golden arm
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Is it possible the 20/20 victories instilled a false sense of over-confidence on the England side?
Whatever happens, they need to bring in Wright and Mascarenhas, two of the better performers in the shortest format of the game, and they certainly won’t perform any worse! I believe the ice under Bopara, is rapidly thinning and Shah has yet again done himself no favours. However, we shouldn’t single out individuals, the team failed as a whole (aside perhaps from Cook) with some of our ‘bigger’ stars continuing to throw their wickets away.
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I agree, they look like a side with no confidence and who've forgotten how to play 50 over cricket. Bopara looked to be struggling to find runs and his running and his shot to get out showed he was just desperate to score. Maybe give him a break and lets see Mascheranhas back in the team, he's a bit older with more experience (first class rather than ODI) and I think his bowling would be of more use on the slower pitches as well.
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Peter E Dant you say you've been a cricket watcher for many years. Clearly you've only ever been a watcher and never played or been involved in the game.
How can you honestly say that Dimi Mascarenhas would let the side down if brought in! Are you actually from this planet? Mascarenhas should be an automatic pick for the ODI side (and the test side in Flintoff's absence for that matter).
He rarely goes for more than 3.5 an over and picks up useful wickets, also New Zealand conditions are perfectly suited to him. Also everyone knows about his big hitting down the order.
Mr Dant please dont comment on a game you clearly know nothing about!
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I thought New Zealand were outstanding today. Mentally they have out gunned England. They clearly didn't like being written off after the T20 and have really come out aggressively and England don't seem to be responding to the heat. Jesse Ryder looks like a special player. Collingwood needed to bowl more and earlier to take the pace off the ball. Not good thinking all round.
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Sadly this was all so predictable once they plumped on a moderate ex county player with no international experience as coach. Add the utterly whimsical idea that you need different sides for one day cricket and you have a recipe for continuing failure....
It is all so utterly depressing...
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You can't just blame the team, you have also to blame the backroom staff. After the last match surely something must have been said about running between the wickets. It's so simple; "Yes or No or Wait". And what instructions did Collingwood give his bowlers? What did he say to Broad, for example, to change him from the intelligfent bowler of the 1st match to the rubbish this time. By the way, if Bopara is superior to Mascarenhas, why is he seldom asked to bowl? Waiting in the wings are Tremlett, Wright and Mascarenhas. Maybe they should be told "put on your makeup, you're on next!" And yet again, whoever let Troy Colley go should be publically flogged!
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played boys! Shah is looking good! and obviously jesse ryder can't play the bouncer?!
where is dimi? where is luke wright and get tim ambrose in! mustard hasnt scored anything!
Stuart Broad should bat no.3 and Bopara should play Minor Counties.
Micheal Vaughan was SLATED for being a bad one-day player.. i dont think so! get him back in there! 10x the captain colly is!
Cook
Bell
Vaughan
Pietersen
Colly
Wright
Ambrose
Dimi
BLACKWELL
Broad
Sidebottom
Best One-Day XI England can play.. Agree?
Or maybe Geraint Jones.. what a player.
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As a kiwi living in the uk I'm stoked to see NZ come back as strongly as they have. Following Bonds exit from all cricket, Styris retiring from tests and soon it seems to be followed by Fleming a genuine crisis was looming. Especially as the rumours are that other players will soon follow their example. I believe Englands problems lie in their inconsistency in selection as I can name dozens of players who have been tried at international level and then simply discarded i.e. Loye, Habib, Wells the list goes on ... Bopara might be having a tough introduction but England have to look longer term. What they would give for another Fairbrother !
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As usual England cannot get the balance of a one day side right - they really don't even know how to set the right batting order let alone bowl. What's with all the short stuff?
I seriously question the inclusion of Bopara in any International side, Mascarenhas is far superior in every department. Anderson, Bell, Swann - not really. Pietersen has been out of form for ages.
I would stick with Luke Wright and Mascarenhas (apart from a fit Flintoff is our best genuine all rounder), have a punt on Surrey's James Benning and bring in Ramps for Bell. Yes Ramps who is good in all forms of the game.
Bowling - try the young Yorkshire leg spinner who is a great bat as well (his name escapes me!)
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NZ canter to victory at ten an over and Bopara still doesn't get a bowl. He's therefore clearly in the side as a specialist batsman - so surely we can pick a better specialist batsman?!
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Three things need to be done.
Time for Ambrose to be given his chance and at 6 or 7. Mustard just isn't up to the job with the bat. Plundering runs against the weak bowling attacks of FP North and Pro40 Div2 is totally different to international play. After shelling two catches in two games, it is clear that he is not good enough with the gloves to make up for this.
Wright should be brought in to open. He is a far better bat that Mustard and took to the job like a duck to water when moved up from 8/9 to open in the Sussex side. Not sure which batsman he will replace but there is plenty of choice.
We need to bring in bowlers who can bowl with control. Economy rate is hugely important in ODIs and we just can't afford to have bowlers who get flustered as soon as the batsman attack. Mascarenhas is probably the guy in the current squad but Yardy would be even better. If we had both, they would bowl their 20 overs in a full length match for 70-80 runs most of the time. Can't think of any other combination of two bowlers currently in or on the fringe of the side that would be close to that.
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The players really do need to take a long hard look at themselves following this latest nightmare result! It will be interesting to see what excuses they come up with this time. Not good enough!
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It seems lately that England only win when they're not expected to (ODIs against India, SL) and lose where their _supposed_ strength lies (Test series against the same).
The England dressing room seems to be too dependent on team confidence to get through bad times. When it's going well, everything's fine and players express themselves with bat and ball... But when things are bad, no-one seems to be able to keep their heads. There is little mental resilience, only bloody-minded attempts to force play back on their terms (e.g. run outs, risky shots trying to force out yorkers).
Peter E Gant - almost certain to fail is a shade better than actually failing. Twice. Bopara needs a wake-up call, and Mascarenhas has earnt a call-up over him.
What is the point of brining Bopara if you aren't going to use him as a bowler anyway - same for Luke Wright.
Millsy - playing the same side in tests & ODIs would only make sense once they get test selections correct! Bell batting at no. 3 is asking for trouble, especially early on in the game.
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I am surprised that English supporters are gunning for Bopara. True, he looks rattled but just to remind you all he won a one-day match against India not too long ago when he batted beautifully with Stuart Broad. He also played well in the World Cup 2007. The team does not look strong with Flintoff.
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No-one seems to be coming up with any advice, including Aggers. Abuse is easier. I sometimes wonder if cricket hasn't become a whipping boy. It's a game that is dependent on confidence to a high degree. I did shudder when I heard Moore's advice after the first game was to be more 'aggressive'. No, we need to be smart. He has played to NZ' strong hand. We've got to think of a strategy to beat them, not throw the bat at any ball. It generates fear, panicky running, and chances to be out. Get the batsmen to look at the bowlers as they would in a Test. If they had done that from the beginning, then they may have lost the first, maybe even the second, but now they would have some idea how to bat against the opposition. Cook, Bell and Pietersen are all quality batsmen. Ask them to use their quality and lower order batsmen can learn from them. Same for the bowlers, study the NZ openers. They seem to bat just one way. Expose that, change tactics.
I fear that the cry for more 'aggression' will be louder however.
It was treated as a joke when Pietersen kept running partners out. Then Cook did it in Sri Lanka to Bell causing the collapse there. It isn't a joke. It should have been addressed a long time ago. Now the air is black with the wings of chickens coming home to roost as Alan Bennet once wrote.
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Bad luck England. Stick with the 20 20 game.
Looks like 5-0
Come on NZ
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I am not surprised at this result. Normally you would expect the team to bounce back after the first ODI drubbing and stick to basics. But not England.
For starters, let us get one thing straight. A lot of comments on the previous Aggers post have made it very clear that NZ are the #3 ranked ODI side in the world. So give them respect where it is due.
Second, the comments in the media. The English press as well as the captain Colly himself talked up the T20 victory as the greatest victory of modern times. India has just shown in Australia that performance in a 20/20 game is no indicator of the overall team potential - India has come strongly back in the ODIs. And here we see England making a mockery of their supporters.
Then, too many bits and pieces players in England. You cant really blame the selectors. Neither of Shah, Bopara, Swann, Broad, Mascarenhas is world class. The less said of England wicket keepers the better. Wright has shown some potential to be of international quality and could be given a longer run in the side. All these mediocre players can swing the bat a bit and roll their arms over. They should go back to their county games and allow England to build a truly world class side by the 2011 world cup.
Finally, did I see some comments from other posters on lack of match practice? Give me a break. As one poster has very aptly put it: all this cricket interrupting their holidays. I wouldnt be surprised if the England cricket team landed in NZ and had had a ball over the past few days (we all know of the drinking stories in the team) and stumbled onto a cricket field hoping to cream the opposition.
There isnt a wake up call like this one - is it?
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JONATHAN AGNEW - BE FAIR
AFTER 1ST ODI
‘The most curious innings of all came from Ravi Bopara who used up 21 balls in scoring three! What was he doing?’
AFTER 2ND ODI
‘And then Ravi Bopara produced the coup de grace’
‘To compound it all, Bopara than clipped a slow full toss right down deep square-leg's throat: we are really starting to wonder how deeply Bopara thinks about the game’
PLEASE DON’T FORGET THERE ARE 11 PAYERS IN THE TEAM, AND ANYBODY READING YOUR COMMENT AFTER THE 2 ODI’S WILL KNOW WHAT YOU MEANT EXACTLY.
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What annoys me is that I'm sure we will get the usual chirp from Collingwood about how many positives there are to take from the game. Its the other shambolic rubbish that needs to be addressed if were going to win something or at the very least compete.
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Its interesting to see how Bopara is taking the stick from supporters for this defeat. Not so long he was the bright young thing of english cricket. First of all lets look at the contributions of Bell and Pietersen batting at 3 and 4 where the like of Ponting Sanga etc score 100s. Quite simply they have underperformed for too long and any other team would have made changes by now. Bopara is a good player with potential but no way is he an all rounder who should bat at no 7. He needs to be put higher up the order like he does for essex.
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When England beat India in Last ODI to win the series 2 of Indian top order got harsh decisions in Final ODI otherwise India might have won the sereis
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Bad luck England. Stick with the 20 20. It is the future.
Looks like it will be 5 zip.
Come on the kiwis
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Well, thank the Lord for 'FLU. I was, repeat WAS gonna get up early and watch this. Atchoo Atchoo. I only saw the last few overs. Did England watch AUS/INDIA game? Aussies bowled out for a low score, but my my did the India team have to work for the win. most of all, it was INTERESTING. England came out to field all guns and mouths blazing, but after 4 overs reminded me of the cowed bully put in his place by the school swot. GET A GRIP. Stop saying you can do better! DO IT
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i agree with gary, mustard isnt cutting it, drop him and get tim ambrose in. also CAN we please have two batsmen opening. Mustard is not gilchrist, no one is, so we will have to play in a slightly different way to australia! Surely bring the hitters in later and lets bat from the top-good batsmen know what is required during the restrictions let them do it. as for the bowling we look delicious to the oppo'. im worried that broad is the new anderson, lots of promise but not delivering-whats the bowling coach telling the attack?
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seriously can aggers tell us why he thinks maschreanhas has not been picked?
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I have been saying for a long time in these columns that the current crop of English cricketers seem to lack grit and spine. Who could not but agree with Jonathan that they need to get back NOW to sound fundamentals. They still might not win often against the stronger teams but at least they will give a decent account of themselves. To be beaten so comprehensively by New Zealand attests to something rotten in the state of English cricket. Here in Australia I am watching not one but three powerful one-day teams battle out a series wherein any one of them, might emerge as winner. It is scintillating stuff. The English coach could do worse than to get hold of a few tapes of these matches and study them to death for the many aspects of fielding, batting and bowling on dislay here that might be learned from these powerful teams. England has hit rock bottom right now. With the requisite humility (unlikely in view of the players' tendency to talk themselves up all the time) and some genuine application they can still prove they are at least competitive as shown in those Twenty20 victories.
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the english press has been far too cocky after england's victory in the 20/20. it is possible to win a 20/20 match by playing risky, sloppy, high stakes cricket, which is what england did. it is far harder to win at the 50 over game by playing that way.
the new zealand team is a finely honed 50 over team with some superb young talent, whereas the england team is poorly prepared.
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I can't actually believe that people are still stupid enough to suggest recalling Mark Ramprakash.
How short are peoples memories? This guy has been given too many chances in the past and it is nothing short of ridiculous to suggest it.
Yes England need a 38 year old bottler who scored one 50 in 18 one day internationals back in the side!
I despair at some people who write in these forums!
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Everybody get on their knees and pray for Freddie, because we are a different team when he is in it - even if he is not getting any runs or wickets - like Botham before him he has a positive psychological effect on the team and opposition fear him.
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So another one day game drifts away.Saw the highlights.Until they went off doing OK.If they had just batted average they would have got a decent score. If they had treated like a 20 20 innings and played poorly , oicked up another 100 or so runs - game on.So often we lose the plot - wicket too slow,too fast,outfield too quick,boundries too small / too fast etc. How we can talk down 50 over cricket as boring is mad.When we learn to play international 50 over properly lets then talk.And lets get rid of this childish "aggresion".It is embarrassing if you cannot back it up.
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I think the T20 has confused the England Team. They haven't throttled back and realised the only back to basic instruction is occupy the crease!
This game plan would also include having lower order hitters to increase the run rate though so we must include Dimi! i have nothing against Bopara who will be class but at the moment he doesn't bowl and bats 7?? what's the logic in that.
Regarding our lack of world class players - mentioned earlier - if we had 11 of those in ANY sport we would win everything. we have to accept we have a few world class players and some good ones who can produce the odd world class performance.
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Having been to the match, I'm at a bit of a loss to explain what I saw. At some point, bowlers need to bowl intelligently. I can't understand why Anderson and Broad both, three times in an over, served up long hops. You'd think that after the second one was carted for successive boundaries they'd have got the message. Maybe someone has said to them "They'll never expect that third sh*te ball in a row. Go on bowl him the same again Broady!" During the whole (admittedly short) innings I can't recall 1 attempted yorker being bowled.
The thinking confuses me with regards to the selection. I don't know what Bopara's in the side for. Is he there for his batting? Is he better than Masceranhas? Is he a better bowler? If he's in the side for his bowling then why doesn't he bowl? Is he in the side for a late flourish with the bat. Wouldn't Luke Wright be better at this? Certainly his running out of Cook would be embarrassing at schoolboy level. Some clear thinking needs to be done. The Kiwis are very wary of the bloke whose name I can't spell. We've missed a trick there, I think. Panasar, Giles and Ashes rings a bell here.
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Well. That was certainly an "interesting" display, I use interesting rather than plenty of four letter words I'd rather not use on the ±«Óãtv!
Just shocking! Bell failing again, and more to the point Collingwood failing going for a run that a 17-year old would think twice about, nevermind an international captain. Bopara once again looking way out of his depth, and why he's prefered to Mascheranas, who is a far better bowler than both Ravi and Collingwood and offers a threat with the bat is anyones guess. Just a shocking display with the bat, giving the bowlers nothing to work with again. We've put up about as much fight, perhaps less, than Bangladesh did so far in this series!
The only England cricketers this seems to have any benefit for are Vaughan (any doubts over whether he should keep the test captaincy over Colly must be dispelled) and Strauss (as Shah's not exactly on tip-top form...)
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it is time to get rid of peter moores. he as done nothing since he got the job maybe the worst coach ever.give the job to boycott he will put some pride into wearing the england shirt.
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frankly i think the main culprit is the media: inflating egos and expectations with an endless diet of aggressive of-course-we-can pap. the players can't help but be unduly influenced by this swagger, and forget that in order to make it come true you first have to play a decent game. and all that brash superior rhetoric that Pommie fans seem to delight in is the reason other nations love to see England lose.
We kiwis on the other hand are (AB's excepted) natural underdogs; thus (generally) more accepting of defeat, and more delighted in victory. More to the point, though, we never get fooled into thinking we just have to turn up to win.
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Let's be serious,it is easy to shout rubbish,but that does not help cricket.It is obvious that a drastic re-think is required for the 50 over matches.A drastic change of attitude is required regarding captancy, England require a man with at least a 3 dimensional approach to the game.ie a tactician,remember Jack Bond of Lancashire,no great batter but a master of his art when he took his side onto the field.Variation is a definite requirement in attack,forget so called all rounders,use specialistsuse a wicket keeper who doesn't drop vital catches,what I am really saying is revert to five specialist batsmen,a wkt.keeper and our five best bowlers.including a spinner,and persevere with them.
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Thank goodness for Aggers' TMS commentary. His story on Saturday about Frank Shafter was a gem. At least we can rely on TMS to keep the listener interested even if the cricket is dire.
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"These are not bad cricketers - They hammered NewZealand in the Twent 20's"
Er no - The Man of the series in the 20/20's seems to be out of favour, and not getting selected ahead of this bunch of halfwits.
Come on England, have some sense and get Dimi back in there. It's not as if he did anything wrong when he was in the ODI team.
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Maybe England will finally stop gobbing off to the media after this later pitiful performance . Even after the first ODI defeat they were telling us they were "confident" of victory - this kind of talk simply serves to wind up the opposition, as England's mouthy mediocrities should have worked out over the past couple of years. When you have dominated cricket for years like the Aussies then you can afford to start talking yourselves up and undermining your opponents; until then just shut up and play
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So many of the comments here are funny.
Its almost as if you English believe you have a god given right to beat the colonials.
The simple fact is you have been comprehensively smashed by a better TEAM!
Spend a minute or two to appreciate the top quality cricket that NZ are playing in this series.
Someone get flintoff on a plane asap, even injured he has got to better than 90% of the chumps who you have running around NZ.
Never ever ever forget you are playing a team with immense national pride and a hell of a lot of skill.
Kia Kaha Blackcaps
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It's massively psychologicsl isn't it? Reminds me of my grsndaughter's figure skating competitions. One skater goes down and all of a sudden it dawns on the rest that ice is slippery and you end up with a total flopfest.
Professionals shouldn't be so vulnerable to this. They have muscle memory, experience, and well, they are professionals. Aren't they?
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Do any of the England cricketers have the brains they were born with?
You can blame selection all you like, but when so called professional cricketers play shots like that, and run between the wickets like headless chickens, what can you expect?
That's two Sunday Village Cricket performances in a row. Maybe they should be given Sunday Village Cricket wages to match (ie, nothing at all).
Pathetic.
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Speaking as a wicket-keeper batsman who was part of a side that actually won something last season (OK, so it was only the Church Times cup, but when you're 50 with slowing reactions you have to take anything you can get), I am sick to death of England sides which repeatedly feature average keepers on the grounds that they can bat a bit.
We really must get back to playing the best keeper, whatever his batting may be like. Surely the unluckiest keeper of recent years is Chris Read. He performed quite usefully with the bat anyway, but his glove work was outstanding.
A keeper who makes a cheery 20 or 30 with the bat and then drops the opposition star batsman who goes on to make 100 has not served the team well.
Get the best keeper in!
(PS, like r.toone post 21, I'm available)
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With the current squad they have out there, I don't see much change from 5-0 but I maintain it's more the selectors (and the captain's tactics) that are awry here.
I won't harp on any longer about Bell and Cook. They're ok - but not in ODIs - too limited.
What scuppered England was the rain. That's no excuse - but they lost it because they had no idea what to do after. It is always a difficult situation for any team expecting 50 overs, then batting nicely for 20 but then having only 15 not 30 to face. This is where thinking on your feet comes in and we simply have idiotic cricketers that cannot think on their feet. There is seldom a case for slogging but even in T20, you don't have to slog all the time. They came out far too aggressively after the rain break and the young players that we have simply folded - except for Bell who got a great ball that he played badly.
The media must take some blame for this. When the established players fail, there's the call for young blood. Now we have young blood, we have to expect this sort of thrashing every so often. I didn't enjoy watching it but it's hardly surprising.
We need to select the right side (though I do admit dropping Bell and Cook it isn't obvious where to turn).
I really don't think Bell, Cook, Broad and Anderson are worth their ODI places. It's still early for them as it is for several others - but this is where our selectors fall down. They simply can't accept that our players won't/can't adapt so we get dashers in tests and stodgy players in ODIs.
To me the worst aspect of today was Bopara - a young lad who I personally think has a great talent not learning from his mistake the other day.
If that was a bad day at the office - what's this?
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I'm not a fan for sweeping changes, but Shah and Bopara have not looked at all comfortable in the last two matches. Bring in Wright and Dimi to give our batting some bite. Wright has shown he's a destructive batsman who can change the nature of an innings giving momentum to a team towards the end, getting quick runs on the board and firing up the squad, whether in a T20 or 50-50 match. Dimi batted and bowled very well in the two T20 matches, and deserves his chance in this format. If the selectors balk at dropping either Shah or Bopara, perhaps look at dropping Anderson or Swann. Not as justified perhaps, but England's batting needs a shake-up and Mascarenhas does give an extra bowling option.
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Don't worry Poms.
Watching Craig Cumming face up to the first ball of the test series you'll soon realise you're miles ahead of us at test cricket.
Cumming makes Bopara look like Bradman.
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Fantastic! As a Kiwi its thrilling to see, especially given the massive doubts I always have over the NZ team. Don't worry England, you have the tests to come where NZ is considerably worse than in ODIs.
I am thrilled to see other NZ bowlers doing the business, especially with the world-class Shane Bond now no longer spearheading the seam attack.
Given that just a year ago in Wellington NZ beat Australia by 10 wickets and then followed this up by winning the next 2 ODIs in Auckland and Hamilton by chasing down 340+, NZ as ODI unit are due respect, with or without Bond.
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someone needs to explain to england cricketers that they could be sitting in an office doing a boring mundane job like the rest of us.
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If it's any consolation NZ whitewashed Australia 3 - zip, in the same series last year including a 10 wicket win as well.
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I can understand the frustrations over Bopara and Shah - plainly not good enough for international cricket - but how come Anderson has escaped any real criticism yet? For years now he's been selected time and time again without ever showing that he's got the steel or the brain to be a good England bowler. Every time you switch on a game early morning you see him getting battered all over the field by serving up half-track or leg side dross, or note that he's gone for 6 an over or more. 1 or 2 wickets per game is no use when he's that expensive, and I'm afraid the "promising" tag is long gone. Sorry for not being constructive - but that performance doesn't really draw out any positivity.
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England 20/20 victories was overrated, remember zim,eng,pak and india all have victories over australia in 20/20.NZ has beaten eng regulary in the past and will continue to do so if oram and the captian is always available, and when eng brings in DM for the next match you will see why he was not played.
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We need to make some urgent changes in the England squad. I'd suggest opening the batting with Keith Harris and Orville, and calling up Bob Monkhouse's corpse as our strike bowler. We need to reclaim some dignity here.
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It's comforting in this topsy-turvy world of crazy climate, crazy financial markets and political and religious instability, that the England cricket team can be relied upon to do the predictable thing and collapse disastrously for no apparent reason. How reassuring and, (dare I say it as an Englishman?), how funny.
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My usual enjoyment of the Test Match Special coverage was tinged with morbid fascination as I listened to what must have been one of the most inept performance this lot of players has put together in a long time - have they been taking lessons from the rugby team?
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almost all the cricket playing teams
have same bowlers and batters who play test matches except aussies who have a mile long of players streaming through academy.the problem with us is wrong selection,wrong coach and a big number of beaucrats whose heads are as big as football. further, as soon as we win one game we announce that we are the best - are we? we are the only major team who have never won
the world cup, 20 twenty pl. regroup ourselves,bring back robert key,ramprakash,adil rashid vaughn and
hoggard instead of bopara,anderson,
swann,cook&wright.Vaughn must play
as one day captain as well.could
Boycott read my letter PLEASE?
The selectors and coach are all
sitting as comentators-- you do agree
don't you ?
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New Zealand two England nil
This is the price of being shortsighted - two seperate captains not on - how can any one say that Colly is right
We need dignity, class and common sense - Michael Vaughan brings this OK his batting misses some times but not his captaincy and I would back him for guts.
I still have time for Colly but not as captain
Don't criticise the bowlers the damage was done before they got the ball in their hands
Give them something to bowl at - tell the batsmen like KP, Bell, Bopara, Colly etc to take their brains as well as their bats to the middle
They must bat for half the overs before they start clubbing, and theres no substitute for quick smart running between the wickets - 6 singles with the odd boundary makes sense
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I'm with the comments here about Peter Moores. He was the cheap option and now England are living to regret his appointment. There'll no doubt be the usual chat of 'learning lessons' and 'taking positives' out of the game - frankly, we're all getting a bit sick of that by now.
Time to admit that England need an ex-international, who has played the game at the highest level and knows what it is all about, as their boss - and if that means the men in grey actually having to spend a bit of money, then so be it.
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Gary. Gary, Gary what sort of line up is that? You must be an aspiring batsman and just do not have the all round knowledge to pick a balanced side. Good batting line up maybe? but with that bowling unit made up of only 2 front line pace men and a clutch of part time medium pacers and mediocre spinner we will be chasing scores of 400+
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some body remarked as to how many bad days can England have. I would like to add that sometimes people have one bad week at the office. That is the problem with this england side. All the players are below international standard except may be Peterson who is having a bad month at the office.
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Didn't Vaughan comment on how well the split captaincy is working?
He must be sleeping soundly at night!
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Why do England always seem to be building towards something? It's either the next Ashes or the next World Cup. They should concentrate instead on scoring the runs and taking the wickets needed to win each match as they go along.
I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that England have not made any progress since Fletcher stepped down. In fact, thing seem to be getting worse.
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Chris Read should not only be keeping wicket but also captain of the ODI team.
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is it me or has cricket become an unbelievably complicated game all of a sudden? talk of 'balls in the right areas' and 'shot selection' is surely 'line and length' and 'picking the right ball to hit' by another name. i'm sure that bio mechanics and nutrition have made our athletes more fit and healthy which is a good thing but they are not any better at thinking on their feet once the parameters of the game changes. (ie drop in pitches and enforced rain delays). if you look at the england top four thay are all excellent natural players. Cook is slightly different but he can play. Bell Pietersen and Mustard(one dropped catch and everyone's calling for his head) are all excellent strokeplayers. Shah is out of form, Collingwood a year past his best and Bopara is not quite there yet. i think we have to look at 5, 6 and 7. we have good middle order players in every first class county. for heavens sake pick the ones in form. don't tell me we have worse bowlers than Mason, Oram, Mills and Martin. let these players play with their own talents and stop making them work to a strategy, plan or misjudged tactic. they may be well fed, well prepared, well drilled and well tecnically assisted but they are also well short of being a top one day team!
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Relax. Your team's got talent coming out its ears. Just keep your heads down and everything'll turn around at some stage.
BTW, is Panesar injured? I was looking forward to watching him bowl.
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What a terrible fifteen months it has been. I wonder how it would be if we had Tom Moody in charge, would it be jelly beans, continual statements of intent and alarming days where nobody can stop the downslide?
Even if we went and won the rest of the games on this tour it would still be below what we should expect, these performances [much like Bangladesh beating the Aussies] come as an indicator that things arent well in the team. How could they be, our captain and talisman was busy bonding with the enemy during the Ashes and nobody stood up to him then...
We can blame the players, coach or whatever we want but we lost our minds when we won the Ashes and are now in a state of perpetual shock from an Ashes whitewash, whatever the reason - we need to get out of it as soon as possible. I wish we had someone like Nasser to take a grip on this worryingly awful team.
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Seriously I think England will win the next one, these guys are all good players & some of them are really good. Stick with the same team for the next game, they got themselves into this mess they should get themselves out of it. That said it is tempting to drop Boppy.
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Ecstacy to Ignominy again! How we love to build these guys up and knock them down.
Ravi Bops is a young guy - think of the future. He has shown excellent potential and should be allowed to develop and afforded the time. This process has worked well for Ian Bell. He also offers a bowling option and Colly has shown how useful it can be to have variation.
Shah should have been given his opportunity when he led England to the U19 World Cup. Unfortunately he has to make way for Ravi.
Cook shuold be encouraged to develop his limited over game. He is a great talent and FEC (future England Captain), and should be challanged not mollycoddled.
After this tour I would like to see Vaughn come back in to the one day side (not as captain).
Mustard Rocks! What a punk
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Not sure Shah deserves to be dropped just yet - it was a good ball that got him - but Bopara clearly needs to regroup outside the team and, as everyone is saying, why no Dimi ?
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It’s absolutely disgusting that the same bunch of rabble is representing our country…How Dimi doesn’t get in the side when Bopara continually plays like an absolute clown is beyond me. As much as we had a bit of a laugh about it and I like him as a player I think Shah has probably had his time now. Jimmy is still serving up too many four balls which after about a 4/5 year England career is diabolical, with someone like that how is Broad ever going to learn and develop fully?!? Mustard is not an international opener!! He is barely a number 6 or 7 batsman from what I have seen from him, I think it is time we stopped picking a wicket keeper for his batting ability and picked the best glovesman…no matter how many runs he gets it doesn’t mean anything if he drops catches all the time. Pick a proper opener for one dayers instead of a WK like Strauss or give Loye another burst although I am struggling to name a top quality English ODI opener. Get specialist slip fielders who can hang on. Sort their stupid schoolboy running out. Pick a better captain for the ODI (namely Strauss…2 birds 1 stone) because as a captain I have never thought Colly would succeed. Get rid of Moores…
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It’s absolutely disgusting that the same bunch of rabble is representing our country…How Dimi doesn’t get in the side when Bopara continually plays like an absolute clown is beyond me. As much as we had a bit of a laugh about it and I like him as a player I think Shah has probably had his time now. Jimmy is still serving up too many four balls which after about a 4/5 year England career is diabolical, with someone like that how is Broad ever going to learn and develop fully?!? Mustard is not an international opener!! He is barely a number 6 or 7 batsman from what I have seen from him, I think it is time we stopped picking a wicket keeper for his batting ability and picked the best glovesman…no matter how many runs he gets it doesn’t mean anything if he drops catches all the time. Pick a proper opener for one dayers instead of a WK like Strauss or give Loye another burst although I am struggling to name a top quality English ODI opener. Get specialist slip fielders who can hang on. Sort their stupid schoolboy running out. Pick a better captain for the ODI (namely Strauss…2 birds 1 stone) because as a captain I have never thought Colly would succeed. Get rid of Moores…
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england is good side in tests but not in onedays.i think saqlain mushtaq is a good optione for england oneday side.he is good odi bowler.pzl give him a chance and i am sure he will perfome
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Anderson is to inconsistent, Broad is playing a level above his ability at the moment. Poor Running, poor fielding. Lets be fair the cupboard is still bare as if the only replcements we have on offer are Dimi and Wright we are in trouble. We dont need lower order sluggers we need batsmen to build innings even in this form of the game.
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Anderson is to inconsistent, Broad is playing a level above his ability at the moment. Poor Running, poor fielding. Lets be fair the cupboard is still bare if the only replcements we have on offer are Dimi and Wright we are in trouble. We dont need lower order sluggers we need batsmen to build innings even in this form of the game.
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Anderson is to inconsistent, Broad is playing a level above his ability at the moment. Poor Running, poor fielding. Lets be fair the cupboard is still bare if the only replcements we have on offer are Dimi and Wright we are in trouble. We dont need lower order sluggers we need batsmen to build innings even in this form of the game.
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Embarrassing has to be the most apt word I think. England far too often look a team with no real idea of what they are doing in this format.
I agree with many other people here that the one-day should not be too dissimilar to the test team. I would like to see Ambrose in the side, but placed at around the 6 or 7 spot. Shah, for me, just doesn't seem to have what it takes in ODI cricket but my opinions of Bopara difer.
Bopara has shown that he has the talent and has also shown on previous occasions that he also has the tempremant to make the step-up to international cricket. My problem is his current role in the side. I think he needs to be placed a little higher up the order, perhaps at 5, and in his place we should have a true all-rounder, or atleast someone that Collingwood has confidence enough to bowl. For me it would be Mascerenhas whose 10 overs would rarely go for more than 40 runs and whose lower-order batting would give us some extra runs. Yes he is a slogger, but a good one.
One other player that I feel has been completely over-looked, especially in the shorter format is Robert Key. Key always looked composed at the crease and is a much improved player since he last played international cricket. He has taken to captaincy very well at Kent and has made the side very competitive. I would very much like to see him at the top of the order for England (although, I would also like to see like to see Trescothick there but that looks equally as unlikely now).
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Embarrassing has to be the most apt word I think. England far too often look a team with no real idea of what they are doing in this format.
I agree with many other people here that the one-day should not be too dissimilar to the test team. I would like to see Ambrose in the side, but placed at around the 6 or 7 spot. Shah, for me, just doesn't seem to have what it takes in ODI cricket but my opinions of Bopara difer.
Bopara has shown that he has the talent and has also shown on previous occasions that he also has the tempremant to make the step-up to international cricket. My problem is his current role in the side. I think he needs to be placed a little higher up the order, perhaps at 5, and in his place we should have a true all-rounder, or atleast someone that Collingwood has confidence enough to bowl. For me it would be Mascerenhas whose 10 overs would rarely go for more than 40 runs and whose lower-order batting would give us some extra runs. Yes he is a slogger, but a good one.
One other player that I feel has been completely over-looked, especially in the shorter format is Robert Key. Key always looked composed at the crease and is a much improved player since he last played international cricket. He has taken to captaincy very well at Kent and has made the side very competitive. I would very much like to see him at the top of the order for England (although, I would also like to see like to see Trescothick there but that looks equally as unlikely now).
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To the person who said that Mascarenhas would only let the side down: let's look at the evidence.
He's played in seven ODIs, three against the West Indies and four against India. In the WI series he was ordinary with the bat (2, 3 and 5), and didn't take any wickets, but was economical, only once going for more than four an over. In the India series he only batted twice, but scored a total of 88 runs from 44 balls, hitting ten sixes (five of which were from successive balls). With the ball he took six wickets, and twice went for less than thirty from the full ten overs.
So his ODI record, though limited in quantity, has plenty of quality. And the T20 internationals in NZ show that he's bang in form - a man-of-the-match performance in the first game, scoring 31 off 14 balls with four sixes off successive balls and then taking 2 for 19 from 4 overs, and 11 off 4 followed by 2 for 25 in the second.
What's the difference between the T20 games and the ODIs? One big one is the replacement of Mascarenhas by Bopara. Bopara is the future, for sure; but Mascarenhas is the man here and now. He has to play in the rest of the series!
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Moores out!! This is a poorly coached side and lacks any sort of discipline and confidence. The coach has to carry the can for this awful awful cricket, and his inability to enhance our bowling, fielding and batting.
Terrible to think that we could have had Tom Moody. An Australian would never put up with this rubbish.
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Dimi has to be in the team.....There's no question, England selectors are clueless, Bopara is'nt half the cricketer Dimi is!!
Seriously...what is going on? Have they gone mad!
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Cook
Key
Bell
Pietersen
Ramprakash
Blackwell
Foster
Mascarenhas
Ali
Sidebottom
Caddick
English cricket needs to start winning again. Don't worry about age and whether they've played internation cricket before, get the best England team out on the field.
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Well well well.
England hammered by what's considered an under strength Kiwi side. An understrength Kiwi side ranked 3rd in the world. To quote the great Bill Lawrie "would you ever believe it"
I find it so funny that the winging england supporters some two weeks ago were telling us about how badly they were going to beat the black caps in both the tests and one dayers (20/20 is STILL noy a real game).
And yet, correct me if I'm wrong, we have England, after two matches, 130 all out in one, and beaten by 10 wickets in another...
I have three words to say to that:
HA
HA
HA
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England were utterly crap and well beaten by the the NZ Z team. Cricket is deteriorating in NZ yet England still cant beat the team no one gives a toss about. Well done Black craps!
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My colleague tells me this is all down to the "plug hole effect". Apparently, when our cricketers travel south of the equator, the ball always spins in the opposite direction to what they expect.
Explains a lot
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No point in complaining about the bowling whatsoever. They had nothing to work with, did all they could early by bowling aggressively, when that didn't work there was no point in delaying the inevitable loss, not as if run rate counts for anything here.
It's the batting that is the problem.
Shah will never be good enough at this level, he is a poor man's graeme hick.
Bopara could be, but needs plenty of work on his decision making. Other than that you would find it difficult to argue for dropping Cook, Bell Pietersen or Collingwood, but Mustard must surely be removed from the top of the order in 50 over games. Put Strauss back in there instead, bat Mustard at 7.
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After these last 2 gutless performances from England, the following is required:
1. Put Vaughan back as captain - this split captaincy is not working;
2. Drop Bell, Shah, Anderson, Bopara - clearly not up to consistent performances;
3. Put in an established keeper e.g. Nixon, Pothas;
4. Bring back Ramps
5. Put in a lower order hitter (Dimi);
6. Tempt Harmy out of one-day retirement;
7. Send a special envoy to Somerset to convince Tresco that he still has it in him to play at international level; and
8. Start praying that Flintoff can get back in the team asap...
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Not sure Shah deserves to be dropped just yet - it was a good ball that got him - but Bopara clearly needs to regroup outside the team and, as everyone is saying, why no Dimi ?
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As usual for England they sure do talk the talk before and after the game.
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Is it just me or have the selectors gone mad here!!. Surely Luke Wright and Dimi Mascarenhas should have retained their places after the Twenty20 victories. They are in New Zealand as specialist one-day players and are not being selected despite their confidence and success. Strange!!
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England's only as good as their last game. All teams are.
Given the ranking's (and the fact we have some depth in this form of the game) no one has any reason for any surprise about the results.
If New Zealand cricket is suffering from losing some players (England have too of late - Tresco', Vaughan and Flintoff) before the end of their use by date - our younger players will gain experience all the sooner for this. While, in the end, it will make us stronger, for now we face a longer interim phase between era's (because of money elsewhere in the game). If England lose in the test series (an era where we lack depth), then it will be something for supporters of England to get glum about.
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Don't worry guys the Super14 rugby starts this weekend, so the whole country will be distracted. Looking forward to hearing you next Ashes. We all love Aggers down here.
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The performance was pathetic to say the least. But please do not bring in Mascarenhas as he will definitely fail.
I believe this was down to sheer arrogance. You guys thrashed them in the two T/20s and thought the ODI's will be a piece of cake forgetting that the Kiwis are 3rd. After the T/20's, Vaughan came out and said the split captaincy is working, I mean please reserve all of this for after the series, not when it is going on.
There is a silver lining to all of this, the Kiwis are rubbish at tests so you guys have a great chance to put something right.
PS Ramprakash has to play......
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And people said england were bad under Vaughan? Looking at this tour so far Vaughan was working miricales!
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The spirit of English cricket was lost on the open-top double decker of 2005. The achievement of winning the ashes was so overhyped that in media terms it compared with the return of our victorious armed forces from the Falklands conflict.
Like everyone else I enjoyed seeing England beat the Aussies, however this proved to be the pinnacle for Team England and since that point we have seen a rapid decline in all forms of the game. One of the key reasons for this is that there is now too much money that can be earned without winning. How can it be right that players can earn in excess of £250K per year (much more in some cases)for losing?
I wonder how many run-outs would have occured during the first two ODI's if our players (and coaches) pay packets were performance related.
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Yes - two v.poor performances. However wholesale changes aren't the answer. The batting is and always has been the issue. Your best batsman has to play at 3 - who is our 3 - Bell! He's NOW had 60 one day internationals with only one ton - no where near good enough. Cookie & Keysy to open. Pietersen at 3. Bell out.
Monty back in instead of Swann. Again a PROPER bowler! And put Broad up to 8. That's it.
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As a kiwi it's sad to see the English slide so quickly from destructive to dire. A few things lie at the feet of Peter Moores:
(1) Colly is not a captain's behind. Either get him a daily 1 hour session with Stephen Fleming or give someone (anyone) else a go.
(2) Wicketkeeper batsman have to be keeper first and batsman second. Gilchrist has set a standard few will reach...you don't always have to try. Get a real opener.
(3) Admit mistakes. Bopara ahead of Dimi is a mistake...mostly for Dimi's bowling as NZ tracks will suit it.
(4) Just because you were good at 20/20 doesn't mean the batsman should try to get 200 in the first 20 overs. You're professionals, act like it.
(5) Have catching practice.
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I'm sorry T.M.S. but I,m not staying up Friday to watch another embarrassing episode like today, they are a disgrace. And has the coach not the b*lls to drop someone who isn't performing......whatever his name may be. Too many automatic choices, make them ALL play for their places
The worst I've known since I took my phd in embarassment at the university of embarassing and passed with embarassingly flappy flyey colours
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The very reason players like Bopara and shah are in england side indicates the growing Indian influence on world cricket. There is no way that player of the caliber of Mascarenhas cannot be included in the side after his performance in T20.
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When will we ever learn - pick our best wicketkeeper to keep wicket in every match in all forms of cricket. Chris Read has been one of the best wks in the world (and comfortably the best in England) for years now but his shoddy treatment has cost us dear in game after game. This HAS TO CHANGE - in any other era Read would have been an automatic choice and would now be heading for 100 caps; he would also have a batting average in tests worthy of his talents in that he wouldn't have to score runs in every single innings to justify his place. I feel desperately sorry for Read - his treatment has been a disgrace for years. How England think they can afford not to pick their only world-class keeper is beyond understanding...
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I think the team needs a change, but not too much. i think they really need someone in such as mascarenhas who can bring his slightly varied approach into the game.
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The less said the better. I am absolutely shocked at this abysmal performance. Living in Toronto I stayed awake through the night, and can't believe what I saw! However, being positive, I feel our team can't get any worse, and the only way is UP. Hope to see a much better performance in the future. At least be competitive. Wright and Dimitri should definitely be in the team at the expense of Bell and Bopara.
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4 million people in NZ. 1 million stuck in traffic in Auckland. 1 million farmers. 1 million ex-pats and a pool of talent the size of a backyard paddling pool to pick from and they still make us look silly. This series should not be a contest. Sadly I am being proved right (but just not in the way that I expected). Mind you though, Duran Duran are touring here next month so it's not all doom and gloom. Can any of them bowl? Bat? Field?
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Unless England adopt an agressive approach as do the top 50 Overs teams then they will continue to lose. Team selection is pathetic as is the running between wickets. What is the coach doing about it ? If Mustard is to open he must go for quick runs. Pieterson must come in at 3. He has a far better average than Bell who is not temperamentally suited for the one day game. Bell's running between the wickets is amateurish as he ball watches instead of running hard and he almost always slows the scoring rate down.
Mascheranas must play. He is the only one who can pick up the late order and attack the bowling. Also Collingwood is not good enough to bat at 5. He should come in no higher than 7. It is no good saying that they can't get any worse as each time thay turn out they prove this woolly thinking to be wrong. If something isn't working change it. Quick!!
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Bad performances happen and down the years supporting England we are hardly strangers to such occurrences. So, these 2 results scarcely bother me. However, what I object to is the reporting of the Twenty20 matches and that they were to be taken as a guide of what would happen in the One Dayers and as an indication of the two countries' cricketing strengths as a whole. 20-20 is an irrelevance and no self-respecting journalist should give it more than a moment's attention. The game is a lottery at best -it provides no test of technique. In a one-day match, England's lack of batting ability is consistently exposed.
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Good God Another dismal febuary night spoilt.Well done kiwis afraid you do not have much to beat though.Proper cricket can be played in the shorter version predetermined shots and headless chicken rubbish,running can not. question IS it being coached?
20/20 is a glorified slogfest for those with a short attention span NOT a form guide.
Fletcher apparently lost the dressing room,this lot couldn't find it.
Vaughan must be relatively happy as dual captaincy is so stunningly working !!!!
Not sure even the pleasure of TMS can persuade me to ruin another nights sleep.
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well done New Zealand, in spite of losing several key players, you still showed England how to play one day games, and why you are rated better too.
As for England, change Bopara for Mascarenhas please, and try and adapt to the basic principles that won you series vs India and Sri Lanka last year!
Either way, at least give the impression that you are trying to use some of the talent available- look at the Aussies, all out for a low score vs India, they still try and fight to the end and make a game of it. Who wants to be English! Go the Kiwis!
Robin P.
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Woeful performance from England, and you would garner a tad more sympathy if you weren't such poor poor winners, and the whiniest losers on the planet.
It's very difficult to feel sorry for you when your media, supporters and team confidently expected to whitewash a Blackcaps side who have a decidedly new look to it (just look at the team that beat AUS 3-0 12 months ago - Fleming, McMillan, Bond, Franklin, Marshall twins, Astle all gone).
You could do worse to build a team like we have, with the emphasis less on individual roles, but more on solid cohesive team play.
Here in New Zealand we don't enjoy the same player depth as any of the other Test nations, so we have to use what we have, and play as a team.
Look at the fielding, we have perhaps the best ODI fielding unit in the world (with the Aussies, but McCullum has shaded Gilchrist as a gloveman as late - in fact he's probably the best wicketkeeper in the world at the moment).
Remove our fielding from the equation, and aside from Vettori and Oram on his moments, our bowling line-up is hardly scary, especially sans Bond.
The pressure we create on the other team has nothing to do with plastic aggression (Sidebottom was comical- especially when he dropped that dolly), but do with sharp fielding, and a captain and keeper backing up the bowler.
Other than that, as a kiwi i'm excited about the Ryder/McCullum opening. They're both aggressive, but look to do different things from different lengths + left/right combo to boot!
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Are Shah and Bopara just put their for "diversity" reasons? There must be some explanation for their inclusion. If so lets have the exciting Mascarenas back.
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Are Shah and Bopara just put their for "diversity" reasons? There must be some explanation for their inclusion. If so lets have the exciting Mascarenas back.
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Are Shah and Bopara just put their for "diversity" reasons? There must be some explanation for their inclusion. If so lets have the exciting Mascarenas back.
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Kiwi - you're wrong. Most of the adverse comment on this blog is from England supporters and we're not whining and whinging but are extremely critical of our team. The Blackcaps outplayed England and there are a lot of us out here singularly unimpressed.
I think Pietersen should be dropped for a while. He's too comfortable of his place and is getting sloppy and careless. 29 runs could be got by anyone else - you don't need to be KP to get such a paltry total.
I'm also coming round to the view that Peter Moores was a mistake. Too matey and not half tough enough. We need a Fabio Capello equivalent and I'm not sure where that person is at present.
Vaughan can sleep easy, at any rate. Listening to his interview, he seemed genuinely enthused by the Twenty20 wins (let's face it, England hadn't won those for donkey's ages so it was a great improvement) and that was why he said the split captaincy was working.
However, some time ago I observed that his one-day record was at least as good as any other England captain's and in fact slightly better than most, so it wasn't really that logical to let him go.
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Are Shah and Bopara just put their for "diversity" reasons? There must be some explanation for their inclusion. If so lets have the exciting Mascarenas back.
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Kiwi - you're wrong. Most of the adverse comment on this blog is from England supporters and we're not whining and whinging but are extremely critical of our team. The Blackcaps outplayed England and there are a lot of us out here singularly unimpressed.
I think Pietersen should be dropped for a while. He's too comfortable of his place and is getting sloppy and careless. 29 runs could be got by anyone else - you don't need to be KP to get such a paltry total.
I'm also coming round to the view that Peter Moores was a mistake. Too matey and not half tough enough. We need a Fabio Capello equivalent and I'm not sure where that person is at present.
Vaughan can sleep easy, at any rate. Listening to his interview, he seemed genuinely enthused by the Twenty20 wins (let's face it, England hadn't won those for donkey's ages so it was a great improvement) and that was why he said the split captaincy was working.
However, some time ago I observed that his one-day record was at least as good as any other England captain's and in fact slightly better than most, so it wasn't really that logical to let him go.
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Well done Team England in finding yet another so-called stumper who CANNOT BLOODY CATCH....what is it with the selectors, what are they trying to prove? Are they so desperate not to give the job to a proper keeper (CWR)? When they've trawled their way through every cack-handed butterfingers in county cricket, there's a lad at my club who stumps, can't catch cold, but he can bat...well...bat a bit...well...he can chuck the wood at mediocre stuff, which seems to be good enough these days.
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It was great to see NZ unleashed and playing beautifully. take nothing away from them
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Agree with comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy find him sufficiently deferential and status-conscious, a quality they found totally lacking in Duncan Fletcher. But Peter Moores is clearly under-qualified for this job, and I see no hope for significant improvement while he remains in charge.
Incidentally, I think the apppintment of Giles Clarke will prove to be a disaster for English cricket.
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from poor management by Peter Moores and those above him.
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Agree with comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy find him sufficiently deferential and status-conscious, a quality they found totally lacking in Duncan Fletcher. But Peter Moores is clearly under-qualified for this job, and I see no hope for significant improvement while he remains in charge.
Incidentally, I think the apppintment of Giles Clarke will prove to be a disaster for English cricket.
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from poor management by Peter Moores and those above him.
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Agree with comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy find him sufficiently deferential and status-conscious, a quality they found totally lacking in Duncan Fletcher. But Peter Moores is clearly under-qualified for this job, and I see no hope for significant improvement while he remains in charge.
Incidentally, I think the apppintment of Giles Clarke will prove to be a disaster for English cricket. He attaches excessive importance to purely financial considerations.
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from poor management and leadership by Peter Moores and those above him.
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Agree with comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy find him sufficiently deferential and status-conscious, a quality they found totally lacking in Duncan Fletcher. But Peter Moores is clearly under-qualified for this job, and I see no hope for significant improvement while he remains in charge.
Incidentally, I think the apppintment of Giles Clarke will prove to be a disaster for English cricket. He attaches excessive importance to purely financial considerations.
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from poor management and leadership by Peter Moores and those above him.
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Agree with comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy find him sufficiently deferential and status-conscious, a quality they found totally lacking in Duncan Fletcher. But Peter Moores is clearly under-qualified for this job, and I see no hope for significant improvement while he remains in charge.
Incidentally, I think the apppintment of Giles Clarke will prove to be a disaster for English cricket. He attaches excessive importance to purely financial considerations.
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from poor management and leadership by Peter Moores and those above him.
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Agree with comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy find him sufficiently deferential and status-conscious, a quality they found totally lacking in Duncan Fletcher. But Peter Moores is clearly under-qualified for this job, and I see no hope for significant improvement while he remains in charge.
Incidentally, I think the apppintment of Giles Clarke will prove to be a disaster for English cricket. He attaches excessive importance to purely financial considerations.
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from poor management and leadership by Peter Moores and those above him.
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Agree with above comments about Peter Moores. I believe he was appointed for the wrong reasons, including the fact that the ECB heirarchy found him much easier to deal with than Duncan Fletcher.
Incidentally, I think the apppointment of Giles Clarke as ECB chairman will not prove to be of long-term benefit to English cricket
The players are clearly under-performing but I see many of the problems as stemming from the management and those above.
I too think Rob Key deserves another chance.
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I had to laugh at those port-a-cabins as press boxes. The problem is that you English just bring too many journalists! They've even had to refurbish the Basin Reserve just to accommodate the English media, they outnumber the average NZ crowd. But at least you get a choice what newspaper to read, something we lack in NZ.
This English team is ruining my hopes that Bracewell would get sacked early. My only hope now is that Gloucestershire come to the party. Got to give him his dues though, he does prepare a pretty good ODI side. Unfortunately (and unforgivably) he ruined what was a pretty good test side (by NZ standards) that Fleming and his admirably anonymous coaches had built up.
Some posters questioned the drinking culture of the English squad, I can report that they had a quiet and well behaved meal the night before the Wellington ODI and left at a reasonable hour.
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As a kiwi supporter used to a history of disappointment, I would suggest you all calm down and remember that a couple of shockers is not the death knell for your team. Granted, you were belted by a fat bloke and a tattoed larrikin but this will not last. Having faith in pernnial underachievers is something we have in common so rather than condemn the occasional horror showing, how about applauding a team who only a week before was labelled the worst NZ team in 30 years. As what is probably the most fickle sports public in the world I cannot understand how you still berate and belittle rather than support and enjoy. Call it small minder thinking from your dominions but things could be worse... you could follow the all-blacks. Chin up fellows, the next win is just around the corner....
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Rob Key? Are you having a laugh? I know we batted badly but come on, Rob Key never was and never will be an international cricketer. If we're going to give other people a go, we might as well try out some of the Lions, someone like Carberry or Denly. Perhaps it is time for Ambrose to play too?
I also agree re: Moores. He was always the weaker candidate at the time of his appointment. One can only wonder where we might have been with Tom Moody, the mentality would certainly have been stronger for a start.
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Rob Key? Are you having a laugh? I know we batted badly but come on, Rob Key never was and never will be an international cricketer. If we're going to give other people a go, we might as well try out some of the Lions, someone like Carberry or Denly. Perhaps it is time for Ambrose to play too?
I also agree re: Moores. He was always the weaker candidate at the time of his appointment. One can only wonder where we might have been with Tom Moody, the mentality would certainly have been stronger for a start.
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What is it with England and collapse? Football, rugby, cricket - same story. All promise and bright openings then watch in horror as the same old panic, self doubt and injuries set in.
Trescothick - panic
Strauss - self doubt
Anderson - injury, self doubt
Harmison - panic, self doubt
Flintoff - injury, self doubt
Pietersen - tired of the burden of propping up a wilting team, putting himself first, fast losing motivation and runs.
Colly - he´s got guts and he tries but unfortunately he´s just not very good.
So that only really leaves Cook.
Brace yourselves boys, it´s only going to get worse.
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Calm down people, it was only a couplet of one-day matches. Yes it was a terrible performance, but to me it appears that after every terrible performance there are dozens of people calling for the heads of virtually every player and selector. After a few matches, the selectors put in a different player, who usually fails, and there we go again calling for his head. England clearly have a lot of work to do but calling for a complete revamp of the side is foolish, especially when considering that England had a good start but were interrupted by a spell of rain. Regaining momentum after a spell of rain and facing the prospect of a curtailed innings via D/L method make continuing the pace and fluency of the beginning session difficult. Even supposedly excellent one-day teams like Sri Lanka struggled with it (case and point the Word Cup final).
As already mentioned, England need to go back to the basics (ie building partnerships, catching balls, the proper tactic for a one-day game (explosive start followed by patience followed by explosive ending)). There also needs to be some, albeit limited, changes to the line-up. My team:
Cook
Mustard
KP
Shah
Bopara
Bell
Colly
Broad
Swann
Sidebottom
Anderson
I know all I did was rearrange the line-up, but I think we should continue with this team at least for the rest of the series. Bell batting further down the order has been shown to be a good thing (he has a higher average at 6). Mustard is having difficulty at the top, but I can see no better alternative as an opener right now. Also, why is Swann in the team again? I have him in mine simply because I don't know who to replace him with...
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First of all, get rid of the GREAT pretender......Kevin P.
He would NOT be playing in any other side and with the same amount of hype!
If England are going to lose as they are, start afresh and nurture new talent, at least there will be a credible excuse.
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Gee. What a drubbing. Cricket is a funny old game isn't it? I wouldn't have given our guys much hope, considering the current state of our sport. It's in a fine old mess. But, crikey was I wrong! Good Captaincy and good fielding. And good on Jessy Ryder for livening things up with McCullum. Fantastic to watch. Even more fun than watching the English run between wickets. What fun and games. Are they being coached on running between wickets by Inzi nowadays?
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New Zealand hit their Twenty20 stride - after that series had ended, perhaps. How about a few games where England have 50 overs to bat and NZ just have 20? On the showing of the past couple of games this could be interesting and more entertaining. Or perhaps England are allowed three run outs per innings?
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too much was made of the 20/20 victories. remember eng zim ind and pak have all beaten australia in 20/ 20. nz is a much better team than england in the 50 overs game and is no suprise that they are 2 up.dimi should play but you will be disappointed as he does not have the class for the 50 game.
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Why do England insist in opening with their keeper? There is no logic in this at all.
You need a good start in one-day cricket, so playing specialist openers is the obvious choice. They have the technique to produce a defining innings for the match and can still hit over the top, if needed.
When was the last time an opening keeper scored us a one day hundred?
When was the last time an opening keeper scored us a match winning innings?
We had some success last year with Nixon down the order, hitting useful late runs which did win us a few matches.
Adam Gilchrist was a one-off. Mustard / Ambrose / Prior / Read / Nixon are no Gilchrists!
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It's very important for the state of world cricket that some of these 'second tier' teams are able to compete with the big boys. And to be fair, England managed to do that pretty well in the 20-20's! I'll get me coat...
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To suggest KP is dropped is just the sort of knee-jerk reaction which would not help the team one jot. I am sure KP would be the first to admit that his current form and his 29 runs (2nd highest scorer) at Hamilton are not good enough. However, he is still a world class player - how many of the team, current or potential, fall into that catergory? Form is temporary, class is permanent.
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Keith (post 154)
how long do you wait?
and what of Strauss? he's one of the best batsmen to play for England and has been unsympathetically treated by the England setup, especially given that he SHOULD BE CAPTAIN OF BOTH TEST AND ONE-DAY TEAMS!?!?!
KP is a good player, possibly a great player, but needs to know that even He is not irreplaceable. otherwise how is he expected to produce his best?
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g (post 154)
I agree that KP is not irreplacable. However if players not currently in form are to be rested we will have a blank sheet of paper - which some might argue would not be a bad thing! However, being serious I would continue with KP for now as even his current form is not as bad as most of the rest and he is still probably the best of a bad bunch. Having said that I too am a fan of Strauss and would like to see him back in the team asap, possibly at the expense of Bell or Shah who are also not irreplacable.
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Many people are beginning to question the appointment of Peter Moores, and to be honest, I can see their point. The fact is that England are performing the BASICS poorly, and management and coaching must be accountable in part for that. You'd have thought that with Kevin Shine England had learned that a county player, and not a particularly outstanding one, is not the best person to be overseeing an international side. No offence to Peter Moores, but he was, of course, the cheap option, and until the men in grey are prepared to put their hands in their pockets and spend money on someone with international experience, the problems will persist.
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Aggers,
I agree, back to basics is a way forward, but, in England, what basics are taught? Maybe the English version of the basics need to be looked at!
Another point is i dont think many of the team know their place. As in, when a pair bat together, one is dominant, and the other supports. When a new batsman arrives, the exhisting one takes over as superior.
England will never win anything is in the short version, ever. They either play too cautiously, or too extragavantly. No middle ground!!
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Aggers,
I agree, back to basics is a way forward, but, in England, what basics are taught? Maybe the English version of the basics need to be looked at!
Another point is i dont think many of the team know their place. As in, when a pair bat together, one is dominant, and the other supports. When a new batsman arrives, the exhisting one takes over as superior.
England will never win anything is in the short version, ever. They either play too cautiously, or too extragavantly. No middle ground!!
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Michael Vaughan is the best batsman england has got technically. I think he should be back in the side as opener and skipper. He is a miles better skipper than colly and now he has had a break from ODIs he would be refreshed. Just look at the last one day game he played for England - 79 runs and 3 wickets. Nobody in the team now can produce that sort of performance!!
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What a mess! So, Dr Atkins prescribes the following remedies:
1. Mustard needs to stop throwing his wicket away. You can be aggresive without being stupid - ie: Hayden.
2. Pietersen needs to forget the hype, and get back to how he was playing 2 years ago. He should play himself in, then turn on the aggresion. Stop playing across the line to straight balls!
3. Bopara reminds me of Ramprakash ast International level...far too intense. He has talent, but don't think he'll ever make it at the top. What's the point in playing him anyway if he doesn't get a bowl. Mascarenhas should play instead.
4. Swann is out of form. Bring in Wright down the order at 7 with a license to thrill.
5. Neither Anderson nor Broad bowling well - drop one of them for Tremlett.
6. Stop running yourself out. If there's something NZ do well, it's fielding. So stop taking on suicidal runs.
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No offence to Peter Moores, but he was the cheap option, wasn't he? The problems are not going to go away until the men in suits who run English cricket are prepared to put their hands into their pockets and appoint someone with international experience to oversee the England team. England are getting the BASICS wrong, which must reflect on how the team is being managed. You'd have thought that the experience of having Kevin Shine as bowling coach would have taught the powers that be that international experience is needed in managing and coaching players to international standard.
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At some point you have to look beyond the players and question the selectors, and management/coaching.
Why is it that the England staff still can't carry out a basic tast like finding a decent wicket keeper?
Every other international team has one and some have more than one. Take a look at India. They could fill out a batting line up with wicket keepers and score plenty of runs. You could have Kartik as an opener, you may remember him, he was the top scorer for India in their recent tour here and keeps wickets very well. At number 3 you can have Dravid who's suprememe record speaks for itself and he's been the wicket keeper for years both for test and ODIs. Then Parthiv Patel at number 4 who's a prolific run scorer yearly in Indian Domestic cricket, a natural wicket keeper and captain of his side. Then to top it all Dhoni at number 5/6 who routinely dismantles bowling attacks and is turning into a very good wicket keeper.
Can England get one of those guys on loan? They might as well try because it's more likely to happen than the selectors/coaches stumbling onto a decent wicket keeper. If they can't do the basic stuff like that how do you except them to instill discipline and confidence into the ODI side when the batsmen who've played well before hit bad form and start playing clown cricket?
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I agree with you.g. post 155. Pietersen has not played at all well for a rather long time; this is not new. Strauss was dropped much more quickly - I hope it's done him good as Strauss is top class, as is Pietersen.
I don't think honestly it's a knee-jerk reaction to say Pietersen should go out to grass for a bit, and re-learn his game. The guy has tremendous class and a potential like no other - flogging him to bits now might well wreck his potential.
I'm a great Pietersen fan, and I think he was absolutely tremendous in the Ashes 2005, but that was 3 years ago and may be now is the moment to get him out of the goldfish bowl and give him a chance to look at his game in peace and quiet. We should not flog people to death - bear in mind this was the chap back in the summer of 2007 who said he was exhausted... what's happened? He's gone on playing even to the extent that his marriage was postponed because of cricketing duty!!! This is utter madness. The Aussie team play half the cricket our guys do.
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Comment 164 "The Aussie team play half the cricket our guys do"
Yes, we play far too much cricket. The reason-money. Money seems to be the overriding concern of the ECB. The counties are driven by greed to the detriment of English cricket.
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Simple Solution:
Bring in Alex Stewart as coach and pick the following team in both Test and ODI formats.
1. Strauss
2. Cook
3. Bell
4. Pietersen
5. Vaughan (capt)
6. Prior (wkt)
7. Mascerenhas
8. Tremlett
9. Broad
10.Panesar
11.Hoggard
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Pai Corey, you fellas sure know how to play 20/20 Aye? Man I wus worried how good yous guys from the land of cricket was, us being just bashers with no style an that. Was rapt to see us fluke those 1 day games, man you were so unlucky aye, dumb pitchs,lousy commentary boxs and stuff like that.Us Kiwis just like a good bash, and these close games are awesum. What if we let you fellas have 13 players dya reckon the games mite last a bit longer, I hate getting home too early, the missus makes me do the lawns. Not to wurry, Rugby starts soon... an you guys have the 2nd best footy team too aye. Cheers bro'
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Soulemane Youla (post 166) - can you imagine a more annoying coach than Alec Stewart? actually i probably can. but still...?!
anyway, i agree that Moores and Vaughn have got to go after the NZ home series. they should never have split the captaincy...
Strauss should be captain, of course. Graham Ford, former South African coach and current Kent coach, should be offered the job. he will place Bell should be vice and should open.
i'd also drop Colly for Mascarenhas and give the big lad a proper chance to fulfill his LARGE potential. in tests too. just look at how Symonds has repaid the faith shown in him?! has Flintoff been away so long that we have forgotten the impact a bustling, 'muscular', competitive player can have! and sadly, i think Colly may have finally been 'found out' (bowl it on the stumps at him)...
england team for test and one day
cook
bell
pieterson
strauss C
shah
mascarenhas
mustard W
broad
tremlett
sidebottom
panesar
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Rubbish the lot of them!!
Bet Prior has a rye smile on his face, not just that Mustard drops one the fact that sidebottom could not hold on to a sitter of his own bowling...
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England as usual, failing to take account of local conditions.
How can you expect to do well in the land of the dibbly dobbler without any decent dibbly dobblers?
Mascarenhas seems a better skiddy medium-pacer than Collingwood or Bopara so he should be in for a start.
Also Tremlett is more consistent than Anderson, and he can bat a bit, so he's probably a safer option at the moment, particularly as England already have a swing bowler in Sidebottom.
Also don't be so predictable, if the medium-fast bowlers can't find anything in the pitch then mix things up by bringing in a slow bowler early on.
England frequently come unstuck in nz by trying to blast out the opposition (this isn't the West Indies circa 1980) instead of trying to bog down and frustrate their opponents.
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