Interesting how the Liberal Democrat story has unravelled further. We're going to be hearing more on the programme this evening. The only word that hasn't been used about Gordon Brown yet is "dastardly" - maybe someone will have uttered it before 5pm?
Why do you think politics in Britain is so tribal when we're told polls suggest that people would like more co-operation between the parties? Do you care?
sequin .
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Sequin;
Your use of 'tribal' hits the target dead centre.
Simply, politics is tribal separatism in it's worst form, often engendering violence in many parts of the world. Building support depends on displaying the ways that your party differs from the others. If they were all the same we'd only have one party. And where would be the fun in that?
Many ±«Óătv hacks would be cast out on the streets. You yourself, having risen throught the ranks of political reporters, would have had to find a different route into ±«Óătv news.
The major, and minor, differences in political viewpoints drive much of the news and current affairs output and a substantial slice of the national conversation. Whether Special Needs education or the internal party divides (e.g. Tories over grammar schools) it keeps us all talking and debating.
What politicians decide affects how each of conducts our lives. It ought to be of vital importance to all of us. Fortunately for us in the U.K. it doesn't often cause violence here, just heat and light in the media.
Si.
I'm pretty sure that the public only chose co-operation as it gives light to the possibility that every MP of every shade would collectively jump off a cliff.
Strangely, I do care, but I want to see rather than effectively fewer (through agreement-enforced cooperation).
Such co-operation as is suggested by Brown simply serves to further entrench dictatorship of the 'majority'.
The present situation in Scotland begins to approach the ideal, where no one (or even two) party(ies) can simply drive through their (dogma-driven) legislative programme, but must seek cooperation of others for each and every piece of legislation.
Of course, we may well see less legislation, but I suspect what we'll lose will be the sort of ill-considered mass of stuff we've witnessed from the last two dictatorships (Thatcherism and Blairism).
How much of the promised magical opportunity in 1997 was wasted on culturally divisive trivia like foxhunting and botched reform of the Lords, to note just two?
Look to Scotland for the new face of multi-party democracy.
ł§±ôáľ±˛ÔłŮ±đ
ed
Si (1),
Light?
xx
ed
(maliciously, of course!)
Si (1), re What politicians decide affects how each of conducts our lives. It ought to be of vital importance to all of us.
Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately I find most people aren't interested at all. Nonetheless, many are keen to express opinions on all kinds of things over a beer and the bones of the latest media-driven "scandal". More interest in the real issues and less focus on sensationalism would make for a happier society, IMO.
I don't think the Lib Dems come out of this very well. Paddy Ashdown's skills could have been very useful to keeping the Irish ship steered on it's course towards a permanent solution, and Gordon Brown has recognised that fact. Okay, so Paddy doesn't want to appear to be a LibDem bungalow. He could, I'm sure, have avoided that propect without rejecting the offer out of hand.
I don't know - perhaps we need to think this through as a general policy for the future. Perhaps every British government who win control at elections should have to be committed to including, let us say, 10% (or possibly more) of politicians from the other parties as ministers.
Given that Select Committees appear to be able to function on a cross party basis, surely it would be equally possible to obtain this solution without compromising confidentiality?
Dear Sequin, yet again, from the perspective of French life, we watch bemused & puzzled.
Sarkhozy wins Presidential election, putting his party, UMP, at the top of the power structure.
First he appoints a Prime Minister, François Fillon, from the UMP. He in turn appoints the Cabinet, subject to Sarkhozy's approval. Of the 16 Cabinet members & 4 State Secretaries, 6 are from other parties & interest groups.
Bernard Kouchner, the highly respected co-founder of Medecins sans Frontiers & member of PS, the Socialist party, is Foreign Minister.
HĂ©rve Morin of the UDF is Defence Minister, Christine Lagarde & Christine Albanel, both unaffiliated to parties but with wide public service experience are respectively Ministers of Agriculture & Culture. 1 Socialist & 1 non-party servant are Secretaries, the socialist advising the Prime Minister on Parliamentary affaires.
7 are women, with one, a muslim, the Justice Minister.
How enlightened I hear you all cry? Of course, & it's gone down pretty well in France too, soothing a lot of anti-Sarkhozy fears. I shouldn't think either the PS or UDF feel threatened, rather it focuses interest on their parties, &, should these ministers perform well, will bring them increased approval ratings
We all deplore 'yah-boo' politics, the weasel replies you often receive, Sequin, from MPs desperately clinging to the party line in defiance of common sense, & the blustering outrage from some Lib Dems & a few Labour MPs merely bolsters this out-moded position that so often works against public interest. If Gordon Brown was putting out tentative feelers to share a little power with other parties, I do hope the affront shown by some possibly self-interested & insecure people has not dealt a killer cut to those feelers!
Sis (5),
Select Committees are the place for such cross-party cooperation, not the executive. I do agree that Ashdown might have been good for N.I., but hopefully the main work there has already been accomplished. Why not just give him a 'special envoy' sort of post without cabinet status to liase with and advise the N.I.Secretary? That would be an example of cross-party wisdom.
xx
ed
Sis (5),
Select Committees are the place for such cross-party cooperation, not the executive. I do agree that Ashdown might have been good for N.I., but hopefully the main work there has already been accomplished. Why not just give him a 'special envoy' sort of post without cabinet status to liase with and advise the N.I.Secretary? That would be an example of cross-party wisdom.
xx
ed
Ed;
There is more than one kind of light.
“As one great Furnace flam'd,
yet from those flames
No light, but rather DARKNESS VISIBLE
Serv'd only to discover sights of woe,
Regions of sorrow, doleful shades, where peace
And rest can never dwell, hope never comes
That comes to all; but torture without end
Still urges, and a fiery Deluge, fed
With ever-burning Sulphur unconsum'd:”
A different form of illumination from Milton and 'Paradise Lost'.
Si.
Yes - I care! I would love to see politicians, as individuals, stand for what they are elected for and fight for the people that voted them, not just towing the party line.
I want to see more political parties in America.
EdI: There is no reason why such cooperation shouldn't happen at executive level as well and I think it would lead to a less confrontational approach on issues of relevance to the electorate (well, all issues should be of relevance, of course, but I'm thinking in particular about healthcare, education, and the like).
I agree with Ann Tarrant: it is possible to achieve this, though clearly our political structure differs widely from the French model.
Sis,
The major difference revealed in Ann's comment is that there seems to be a reservoir of valued folk of 'no party'. I also note that such arrangements do not involve electoral pacts between parties to ensure a 'majority'.
I do agree it seems a better way, but it also illustrates the advantage of having an executive quite separate from the legislature, as in USA, where it also isn't unprecedented to have cabinet members from other parties.
xx
ed
I'll second that, Roberto!
Ironically, a one-party system can be more democratic than a two-party one, because within that single party issues and policies can be democratically decided instead of constantly trying to formulate and present them as aids to gaining or maintaining power.
Best of all is Many parties or no parties and representatives serving their constituents as suggested by Witchiwoman. Fortunately, my MSP is an excellent man who stood as HIMSELF with 'scottish conservative' in very small print at the bottom. He has since given up his party to serve as Presiding Officer, and I hope he'll stand as an independent in four years' time. I suspect he'll get an even bigger majority that way.
If only there were lots more like him, secure enough in their own integrity and ability to make their own judgements.
xx
ed
Malicious? Moi? Marc, where are you when we need you?
-----------------------------------------------------
EdI: You will note from my original posting that I made no reference to pacts, rather that the inclusion of people from other parties should, perhaps, be a requirement. This, of course, would bind the minorities as much as the ruling party.
But there would be many benefits to this, I believe, especially when you have a situation where, as in recent British political history, you have a party in power for an extended period, first the Conservatives and now the Labour Party. This leaves huge gaps in experience for the parties out of power. The Civil Service, too, become coloured by a particular framework. When, as inevitably happens, a party is eventually voted out, there are huge problems for the incoming party as adjustements are made .....
I'm a great believer in using the best person for the job, and would be pleased to see a system where talent from other parties was included in a government if it was likely to lead to a stronger solution.
Well said, hear here and what-not, Mr. Iglehart.
What ever happened to us choosing who has power through Universal Suffrage? I remember I was quite impressed by that idea.
xx
....abusive... you have not heard half of it....!
Sis (16),
"This, of course, would bind the minorities as much as the ruling party."
That's the problem when the 'majority' party from the legislature forms the executive. In the French and American situations, I think the 'other party' cabinet members do not bind their party to cooperate in any way. They are in there because of their individual qualities, and of that I strongly approve. As you say their models are quite different from ours, and I do believe ours could use some improvement. You will have noted that I'm quite excited about the possibilities created by PR in Scotland.
I suspect 'binding' is also the problem as perceived by the LibDems. Having party members in the 'Labour' executive might hamper their function as an opposition party and their ability to appear as an independent source of ideas when it comes to a General Election.
Ashdown, could of course accept such a position as I suggested with or without renouncing party affiliation. An elected LD MP couldn't if (s)he were expected to conform with 'collective responsibility'.
Interesting thoughts, though I suspect Brown's motives. His position is likely to become ever more compromised as Scotland continues to assert its own priorities and its Labour MPs continue to vote on purely English matters.
xx
ed
Brown's actions clearly relate to the possibility of a hung parliament but was he trying to link up with the Lib Dems in order to call a snap election?
AB.
By binding, EdI, I mean that it would bind them into the general good. Which, I'd have thought, couldn't be bad.
Si, in Milton Mode back up there:
Ok, so what, I have wondered ever since I first read Paradise Lost, would Milton have thought *in*visible darkness would be like? had he been reading John Donne's 'A Nocturnall upon S. Lucies Day, Being the shortest day' and started to contemplate the expression of 'a quintessence even from nothingnesse', or something?
Seriously, it's a bit of a silly conceit. If we can see darkness, which we can, it ain't nowise invisible, not nohow. And if it is illumining 'sights of woe, regions of sorrow, [and] doleful shades, where peace and rest can never dwell' then it isn't really darkness either.
(Sorry: I took against that phrase at an early age and you're catching the flak for it, but it honestly is a bit daft.)
Sis (20),
I'm not sure I understand. They should be so bound by vocation anyway (idealistic, ain't I).
I can only see it being of much use if the executive is made thereby more separate from the governing party in the house and if the practice of 'whipping' is once and for all abandoned.
Now that would be a real improvement!
xx
ed
Is it only me who thinks this is a deeply cynical ploy by Brown?
He may fear the loss of seats in the North of England to Lib Dems; he may be anticipating a hung Parliament; or he may be trying to discredit the Lib Dems.
After all, as the TV news pointed out, it was oor Gordie who vetoed Blair's proposed deal with Ashdown 10 years ago. So maybe he's changed?
But making overtures to Ming Campbell and then separately approaching Ashdown is not the action of an honest politician.
Oooh! Is that an oxymoron?
(Moron jokes here, please)
Having heard more on the news, I must say I do despise Oor Gordie. Not a good start to his premiership.
Have to disagree with you Frances. The Lib Dems have banged on about wanting better representation to reflect their share of the vote for years. They get offered a seat in cabinet and suddenly it's not good enough, and they attempt to discredit the person offering it. They can't have it both ways.
Has anyone noticed that this blog entry has no title and hence no link from the outside world?
Could be a secret lilypad in the future ...
As usual, Andy, an excellent idea. link saved.
xx
ed
I couldn't care less about tribal party politics. I care about the country. And yes, I do vote. So, how DO we get the best, most experienced, most skilled and/or most talented person to do a particular job when the country would benefit from this, if that person happens not to be of the party in power at the time? That is indeed the question.
OOh yes, good idea AndyCr!
I think someone's tried to name it and made it generate a 404, but my link works
Andy - Like EdI I've saved the link!
Hmmm, me too!
So, Andy, what secrets are to be shared on this lilypad then?
If you are trying to hide from the Bill, or despots like myself, then *Think Again*
xx
Why ain't nobody been back to this secret link then?
Must see if it still shows up in the recent comments as a blank.
Still not here!
Lol - as you know, I never use my favourites, the blody lists so long I can never find anything!!!
Welcome back!
The missing link, RJD, surely?
Aha, this is where you are hiding, in the no-link link!
Want to share any secrets while there are only a few of us who know this tryst-like place?
I'll go first.
Um, oh, that's a bit dull, I don't have any (exciting) secrets, I'll make some up, hang on ...
Nah, Big Sis it's not missing - it just never was!
Gosh, that was a quick posting and submission!
Hello! Have a post!
Ooh ta, RJD! I needed a post to lean against...
posts and links - given enough of them we could probably construct a fence....
Well now, we wouldn't want to give a fence - then we'd be construed as malicious, non?
Btw, the later link doesn't seem to work RJD?
Secrets, eh? Just discovered our Local is for sale, bad news, I hate change. Anyone want to buy a country pub/hotel??
Val P - why don't you buy it?
Must go and check my link!
RJD (47) : Your link is working perfectly now, thank you.
Heeramurrr!
Good to see you again Andy. Was starting to wonder if it was something I'd... oh you know. Anyway, welcome back.
;o)
Fifi xx
The Thunderbirds movie is on tonight. Anyone know if it's worth taping, while we're out?
Fifi
Val (46) : I agree with RJD. Just buy it!
We'll all support you. What shall we call it? (What's it called now?)
Not The Furrowed Brow!
Fifi ;o)
Fifi, I wouldn'y bother taping it. They turned it into a version of SpyKids. Yuck!
Wheeeeeeee!
Splat!
That was good. I'm going to try it again.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!
Oops - sorry RJD - didn't see you there. Here do let me wipe this custard off your face. How unfortunate that's tomorrow's trifle rifled.
Ok. One more time. Except with no hands this time.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
What happened my second one? - it was there a few minutes ago!
I think it's back again.
But perhaps it was magic'd away by the maliciousness fairy - I'm convinced she is like those bad fairies at christenings - waves her wand and nasty things happen.
Moreover she really does not like me referring to her at all....
Proves it goes by IP address tho' since I accidentally used my full name earlier.
tomorrow's trifle rifled." Oh I like that!
Ok. This time - no hands and blindfold!
.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee oh nooooo!!
Hello,
I've been missing for a few days and the blog world has tootled off ahead of me. Good to come back here though. Ah June. I liked June. It was hectic but good. I particulalry liked the beginning of June and the middle of June. June.
Ciao Frog-friends.
A, x.
I come home from a pleasant evening's barbecuing and what do I find?
Today's trifle all over the carpet, and a custard-covered Aperitif blinking and dripping bewilderedly by the aspidistra.
RJD.... wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Fifiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
Any tips for getting raspberry jelly out of an aspidistra?
The maidenhair fern's past saving, I fear.
:o(
Fifi
Back in the land of Make Believe, I just took a nasty tumble on a lump of jelly that somebody had carelessly left on the ground. Now, guys, this isn't on! Can you clear up as you go?
But, then again, I've a lovely elderflower trifle here, RJD's over there, and with a quick hurl .......................................
[SPLAT!]
Mmm, very satisfying, I must say.
I think you just need to let the camlets take care of it. They love jam of all sorts, so will lick the aspidistra clean in no time :)
It's called the Goblin Ha'. Would love to buy it, could we have a whip round please (Naughty Corner for anyone who had a bad thought at that point......)
That wasn't malicious - oh well, actually I suppose it might have been a tiny little bit.
I'm a trifle confused.
OK this time - blindfold - no hands and backwards!
!eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeehhhW
Goblin Ha' - I'm sorry but I was halfway to the Naughty Corner when you said that!
Slooooooooooooooooooooooosssssssssssssh!
Mmmmm, trifle! Pass the jelly, Aps!
OK - On one leg this time!
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee ooohhh. oooohhhh. oooohhh shhii. . .
Oh! Here y'all are! I hope this adds to the count.
xx
ed
AND it's malicious!
Duck, Ed, other wise you'll
* SPLADOOOSH! *
Where did that rice pudding come from?
OK, here comes yesterday's cold porridge, using only my ears as ballast.....
Yeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrr!
Fifi
Damn! I dodged it, but the splash got me.
Smokin'!
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
Could somebody pass me my crutch?
Caught deftly on the point of my nose, Ed, and
whyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurgh!
deflected off towards RJD with a cunning bit of spin.
Fifi
What is going on? Why am I covered in puddings?! Where is everyone sliding to??? Wha-Splooosh! OK, no more Ms Nice Girl -- cop this!!
Ker-splosssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssshh
Ah Ap! - I hate, hate, hate egg custard.
Right - 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5!. What do you think of those for profiteroles?
Val P - That's not fair, sneaking up like that! Here, have a banana split - thwaaaaaaaack!
..and a cream slice
SPLODGE***
Well that's odd I threw a cream slice hours ago and it's failed to appear. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the asterisks when throwing it......
but at least it's a bit more peaceful here - getting a bit fed up with personal attacks elsewhere, tho' RJD you seem to have come in for more than me. And after I tried to help the blessed man with his split windows! No pleasing some folk.
sorry - rant over.
AnneP - Duck QUICK!
Sorry, I was aiming that Sussex Pond Pudding at RJD. But you do like good in yellow.
Anne P - Best ignoring him I think. He has it in for me since I told him some days ago that - well I can't honestly remember what I said - but it was along the lines that I thought he talked nonsensical drivel.
He was also the one who pretended to be witchiwoman, which is unforgivable. I just talk about him rather than to him because I think it annoys him!
RJD I agree that impersonation is unforgivable and I have been inclined to think he just didn't understand and if we explained nicely he would learn how to play, but I'm going to stop responding to him - it's all just too weary making.
Mind out - there goes an upside-down pudding................flying the right way up, how odd.
A Sussex Pond Pudding?? Think that would frighten me?
Incoming upside down pineapple cakes. Phhhhhhhooooosssssshhhhhhh!!!
Now, come on!!! I mean a joke's a joke and all that!
But COLD RICE PUDDING IS NOT FUNNY!!
I'm away to change my trousers.
So why have all the most recent postings on this thread suddenly disappeared?
Phew - that was worrying 404s, missing posts, blank photos I thought we'd really broken it this time.
That's funny - this link seems to have forgotten me, perhaps it doesn't recognise me decorated with all this squashed pudding.
Here, have a couple of raspberry pavlovas - may fave CRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAACKKKKKKKKKSSSSSCCCCCCCCCCLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOCCCKKKKSSSSCH nice and gooey on the inside :0)
Raspberry Pavlovas ?? - I can take as much as you can throw!!!
How do you like your Black Forest Gateaux then? TtthhhwwwwwwwaaaaapppPP!
Raspberry Pavlovas, oh yes - bring it on!
and now for some tiramisu
ssssqqqqiiiiiiiiiiiiiissshhhhhhhhhh
And a shot at the !
Wheeeeeee!
ed
Ah don't throw the tiramisu! That's my favourite. Lob it gently and I'll eat it!
Only if you keep some of the Pavlova for me....
Anne P - It's a deal
*KERRRRSPLAAAAATTTTT*!
There! an apple turnover straing into the mush of a frogger!
:)
Thanks RJD - that's great.
Oh! There you all are, I've been mincing up and down my favourite blog trying to catch the eye of passing sailors and there aren't any.
Brace yerselves. I'm intae that pavlova heid first.
Lady C (101) : BEHIND YOU!
Too late.
Amazing how far that tongue reaches though, when it's chocolate puddle pudding.
Now, a strafing fusillade of iced donuts, launched with a cunning twist of the ankle to produce a corkscrew spinning effect for increased range.
BLAT! (right a bit) BLAT! (right a bit)
BLAT! (right a bit) BLAT! (right a bit)
BLAT! (right a bit) BLAT! (right a bit)
BLAT! (right a bit)
* pause to reload *
BLAT! (right a bit) ... Damn. It's jammed.
;o) Fifi
Mmmmm. I love pavlovas. Can I lick them up, please?
Invisible, Ive found it!
Sacreblue put that tongue away.
What happend to the Good Columbian that RJD had last week? He has dusted the doughnuts with it I believe.
Well the pavlovas went down well - have at you with another couple I've just taken out of the bottom oven. Particularly goo-ey these ones......
Crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaccccckkksssssssscccccccccccccccccccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhlllllllllllllllllllllloooooooooooooooooossssssssssssssssssschhhhhhhhh! Gotcha
Cheesecake Frisbees! - Who would ever have thought?
OK - Here we go!
Lemon to the left. Wwhheeeeeeeeeee!
Raspberry to the right. Pphhiiiiiiiizzzzz!
Blackberry on the backhand. Tthhhwiiiiiiiiiip!
And now the ....Sploooooosh!!!! What the **** was that? Boomerang cheescakes? Strewth!!!!
Don't know who thought of throwing rock cakes, but that hurt....OUCH.
Ha! Ha! - I wish I had thought of this earlier.
Bread and Butter Pudding - launched by large serving spoon!
Phlloooohhhhttttt!
Phlloooohhhhttttt!
Phlloooohhhhttttt!
It gets right inside your ear, doesn't it?
Phlloooohhhhttttt!
Thank goodness that is over - I couldn't face another custrard pie!
Just checking that the invisible thread hasn't disappeared!
Yep, it's still here.