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For those too young to know, too old to remember, or were living off in a cave somewhere and weren't aware of what was going on in the United States in the 1960s and got a sanitized nostalgic version of events from those whose minds were warped by it, here is what really happened from someone who was there, saw it first hand, but wasn't part of it nor would have any part of it.

The 1960s started out with great promise and hope. Young President Kennedy was elected and innaugurated with much celebrity. He and his beautiful young wife Jacqueline Kennedy moved into the White House as the closest thing America ever had to a Royal Family at least in the 20th century. But trouble began almost immediately with the disaster of the Bay of Pigs invasion. Then there was the crisis of the Berlin wall, trouble in the Congo, and eventually in October 1962 Kennedy's weakness and blundering combined with Soviet agression nearly brought the world to an end...literally. The world was actually within hours of global thermonuclear war in October 1962. Kennedy was assassinated a year later to the shock, horror, and mourning of the entire world. As Johnson became president he launched a failed war on poverty and ramped up the war in Vietnam which would also ultimately fail. Those who participated in the civil rights movement switched to what became a violent anti war movement and was seen as, and probably was to a great degree a tool of the USSR to overthrow the prevailing society in the Capitalist West. The drug culture was born. Canabis became as accepted as alcohol and the drug of choice became the dangerous hallucinogen LSD. College campuses all across America were turned into incubators of revolution which spilled out into the streets. Following the assassination of Martin Luther King, there were street riots all over the country and a lot of looting and burning in many American cities. Robert Kennedy, the dead President's brother, a Senator from New York and former Attorney General was also assassinated by the Palestinian Siran Siran in retribution for America's support of Israel during the 1967 war. There was a very good chance that had he lived, he'd have become an American President also, he was very popular. The decade culminated in the spectacle of the Democratic Party Convention in Chicago in the summer of 1968 where street protesters clashed every day with corrupt Mayor Daley's goon squad of police while the convention itself was carefully stage managed by Daley personally. This guaranteed the nomination of Vice President Hubert Humphrey who refused to disavow his association with the war in Vietnam or promise to end it. The decade ended with the election of Richard Nixon who was eventually forced out of office as the result of his crimes in the coverup of the Watergate break in during the 1972 election campaign.

The society was transformed as was popular music. In the 1950s, the rock and roll era began as an outgrowth and synthesis of rhythm and blues, jazz, and other American pop music trends. Its songs of the early 60s seems tame by later standards. Typically these little ditties were simple minded tunes with simple minded lyrics about love written by simple minded hack song writers. The Beatles were typical and an icon of that era. Then as audio equipment became more powerful and the culture of drugs and rebellion took hold, pop music became an exerable experience designed to deafen its audience numbing is sense of hearing while blinding swirling lights in darkened rooms would enhance the effect by numbing the visual sense. With or without LSD or other hallucinogenic drugs, the goal was to "turn on, tune in, and drop out" as the guru of the day Timothy Leary preached. It was a call to self induced insanity.

The college experience in America, one shared by most youth of the day became one of political activism, drug parties, demonstrations, sit-ins, and useless liberal arts courses focusing on societal values of the ultra liberal left which prepared students mostly for a lifetime of mediocrity. This is where the dumbing down of American society began. As adults they were irresponsible, awful parents who did not discipline their children, hardly earned a living, lived mostly off the vast wealth their parents had accumulated...six trillion dollars that was eventually transferred to them, and they became the "me generation" of the 1980s a time of "conspicuous consumption." Their motto was "if you've got it, flaunt it" and "the one who dies with the most toys wins." They led mostly shallow empty purposeless lives. Their sexually promiscuous lives, their careless use of drugs, their indifference to marital fidelity, their selfishness and lack of consideration even for their own future let alone anyone elses led them to contribute almost nothing of value to society. Those who actually did contribute had either been among the handful who reformed or those who were not part of that scene...like me. I call these baby boomers "the spoiled brat generation." Don't belive their lies about how great the 1960s were. The divorce rates, trails of broken families they left in their wake, their rates of drug addiction, alcoholism, suicide compared to prior generations reveal the truth about them. They are now aging into retirement, many are destitute, and they are as self preoccupied as they ever were. It was a horrible time and I was glad when it ended.

Oh, and Woodstock? A sleepy town not too far from Kingston New York south of Albany (where my father's cousin had a restaurant for many years) a little over 100 miles north of New York City was transformed for several days into a sewer of humanity gathered on a farm by enterprising people who offered several days of long lines waiting to use porta-potties, sex, drugs, deafening noise, and lots of mud living out in the rough. Small wonder such a generation would remember it so fondly and offer it up as an icon of their life experience.

Then they found Jesus....

And they viewed Jesus as a product to be packaged, marketed and sold off as a life enhancement too. The boomers have left us all bust.

marcus are you jealous cause you missed out. Woodstock was a great experiment in the cause of freedom. digg it man:)

Ah, yes, boomer freedom.

As Sylvia Plath might have said, "It means: no more idols but me"

"Those who participated in the civil rights movement switched to what became a violent anti war movement and was seen as, and probably was to a great degree a tool of the USSR to overthrow the prevailing society in the Capitalist West."

I can't read any more of your lecture until you provide the source for the rather startling assertion above.

Asi...

I lived through it.

Ever hear of.....Jane Fonda?

Ever hear of.....Eldridge Cleaver?

"Cleaver was supported by regular stipends from the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, which the United States was then bombing."



How about Abbey Hoffman?



The list could go on for pages and pages. Case closed.

Marcus: It's just like arguing with my dad! He still won't watch Jane Fonda movies.

But...

I also lived through the civil rights movement, both in Alabama and Louisiana. Here's a link for you, with another list that could go on for pages and pages. A list of people who were murdered for trying to right a great wrong. They weren't communist tools--just good people, black and white, who tried to make a difference and lost their lives as a result.

I thought the paranoid mccarthy types who blame communism for all the evils of the world had gone extinct obviously not Marcus.

Democracy is the road to socialism.
Karl Marx

Think for yourself and question authority
Timothy Leary

The broad base which was the civil rights movement did fracture into lefty anti-Vietnam, feminazi, ACLU loving sleazy Democrats and normal pro-life middle of the road Republicans.

Tit for tat;

Thanks for proving my point. The boomer generation simply wasn't as smart as the one before it. Brasher yes, smarter no. It was the beginning of the dumbing down of America process. Those who were part of it and who made any real contribution to the world were most likely derided as "nerds" during their youth neither interested in polotical revolution nor popular culture. They wasted their time actually studying things of value that prepared them to change the world. Abbey Hoffman was not a real revolutionary, just a criminal trying to justify his anti social behavior. On the other hand Bill Gates was. Now there is a man who really did change the world. It is not likely you will ever be as smart as your father was. Will your children reverse the trend...or continue along its downward path. Do they use their computers to help them think...or as a substitute for thinking? From what I see, I'm not particularly encouraged about the future. You can see that right now the major issues in America aside from socialized medicine we can't afford is legalization of dangerous drugs. Seems a lot of Americans want to drop out as much now as ever. Escape from reality.

How glad I am that I didn't waste my life being active or particularly interested in politics. I was nobody's tool. That's when I found my credo in life; neither a follower nor a leader be. My religion is Marcus for Marcus. I'm sure I'm much happier and richer for it than I would have been. Hail Ayn Rand, queen of selfishness. An anathema to the baby boom generation and a rare ray of truth.

Marcus,

You said:

"they became the "me generation" "

"their selfishness and lack of consideration even for their own future let alone anyone elses"

"I call these baby boomers "the spoiled brat generation." "

"they are as self preoccupied as they ever were."

All from post 1 and pretty consistent so far.

Then you said (post 11):

"My religion is Marcus for Marcus."

"I'm sure I'm much happier and richer for it than I would have been."

"Hail Ayn Rand, queen of selfishness."


And I'm wondering...

I am own your side for post 12

marcus you should have paid more attention to Timothy Leary.

“You can always pick up your needle and move to another groove.”
Timothy Leary

petermorrow;

Interesting point. The difference is that the spoiled brat baby boomers wanted it all for nothing. Those fortunate enough to have inherited it and not so dumb that they squandered it all on drugs or whatever right away may have done all right for themselves but for the vast majority who inherited "some" and then threw it away, they found out the hard way that when mommy and daddy were dead and the inheritance gone, there was no more. So then they wanted it from the government. That's how liberals are born, they want to share other people's success without having to contribute anything of value of their own. They didn't pay their dues. I'd say that of the few things my ultra liberal father ever said to me in my life that made sense, he told me when I was young that if I worked hard then by going to school and learning something that would lead to a good career, I wouldn't wind up a ditch digger all my life. That's all some of these boomers were ever good for. Weak minds and...hmmmm but weak backs too. Come to think of it....what were they ever good for?

Marcus--how exactly did I "prove" your point? And I am quite a bit smarter than my father in some things, but not others. We are different people, after all.

If you've read any biographies of Ayn Rand, you would know she was a very dysfunctional human being--selfish, petty and just plain mean.

Is that why you admire her?

Peter

I thought you had him there. I thought, there's Marcus, trapped by his own words, he's exposed himself again for the inconsistant, illogical and contradictory drivel he often speaks.

I waited to see how he would dig himself out of the hole.

He didnt.

Tit for tat;

"Marcus: It's just like arguing with my dad! He still won't watch Jane Fonda movies."

"Marcus--how exactly did I "prove" your point? And I am quite a bit smarter than my father in some things, but not others."

I never met you or your father so I don't know how you are smarter than he is but he was clearly more savvy about the danger Soviet communism posed to the civilized world than you ever were.

There was every reason to believe that the Domino Theory was correct. The war in Vietnam was fought over one of those dominoes. In that war, Jane Fonda was a traitor not only to America but to the cause of preserving Western civilization, as were the American left and most of Western Europe who opposed it.

"If you've read any biographies of Ayn Rand, you would know she was a very dysfunctional human being--selfish, petty and just plain mean."

I have no idea what that has to do with whether her philosophy of Objectivism was valid or not. Newtown was supposedly a very disagreeable individual too. Here we have a typical flawed argument by someone who can't think clearly as evidenced by rejecting a conclusion he doesn't like by attacking the messenger because he cannot attack the message. How ever insufferable she may have been to some people, she gave intellectual justification for the sovereignty of individual people over their own lives without any sense of guilt or obligation and without the usual elitist blather which ultimately rationalizes slavery of the self appointed elite over all others in society. The rejection of these altruistic notions of self sacrifice of the individual for the greater good as a noble and necessary behavioral trait those who espouse dogma after dogma based on it is its real value. "There but for the grace of god go I", "Noblesse oblige", "from each according to his ability to each according to his need", "love they enemey" blah blah blah are all she shows to be justification for enslavement of the individual by society for the greater good. Small wonder they all hate her. It's the crux of the very reason I admire her...becuase your kind see her instinctively as an intellectual threat, a challenge to your most basic assumptions. How could the EU, socialism, or Christianity exist if most people thought the way she did?

Marcus

More contradictions.

Ayn Rand, "Gave intellectual justification for sovereignty of individual people over their own lives...."

Obviously she didnt mean individual people from Vietnam, Cambodia, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... etc... all of whose sovereignty was attacked by your country.

Marcus,

So you're saying that's it's OK to be a spoiled brat baby boomer, intellectually justifying the sovereignty of individual people over their own lives without any sense of guilt or obligation as long as one isn't a particular kind of spoiled brat baby boomer, intellectually justifying the sovereignty of individual people over their own lives without any sense of guilt or obligation?

Marcus - your post # 14

I blame the parents. All they had to do was set up discretionary trust funds for their offspring and then their children could have been as dissolute as they liked with no fear of ever being destitute.

I look back to the sixties and think of Wordworth:

Bliss was it in that dawn to be alive,
But to be young was very heaven!

I came from a rich family, went to university, did the drinking, did the drugs, did the whole abandoned pansexual orgies thing, did the revolutionary politics, AND studied for and got a good degree in my spare time, went on to have a successful career, AND am still as liberal today as ever I was.

I resent and deny your assertion that liberals are born out of a want to share other people's success without having to contribute anything of value of their own.

I am a liberal because I want everyone to have free and unfettered access to things I enjoyed only through privilege.

"I never met you or your father so I don't know how you are smarter than he is but he was clearly more savvy about the danger Soviet communism posed to the civilized world than you ever were."

Who is also attacking the messenger?

"There was every reason to believe that the Domino Theory was correct."

Source? And does the use of the word "was" indicate that these reasons are no longer to be believed? As in it was just fear-mongering of the type indulged in by Cheney to push the misbegotten "War on Terror."

""There was every reason to believe that the Domino Theory was correct."

Source?"

How about WWII when one country after another fell to Japan. It almost happened in Europe too. Austria and Greece were saved by a hairs breadth. You can dismiss Communism now but just ask people who lived through it in Eastern Europe (not Russians.) Had it not been for the political determination of the American People and their government and the huge sacrifice they made, all of Europe would still be living under Communism...only because of the prior sacrifice without which it would still be living under Nazism.

Don't tell me Europe doesn't stink. I've spent a lifetime smelling it. I even went there for a couple of years to be certain that's where the reek was coming from.

Communism imploded in the USSR because, as an economic system, it just doesn't work. (And please don't trot out that tired old story about Ronald Reagan bringing Gorbachev to his knees with the threat of a "star wars" missile shield...) Would a conquered Europe have made a difference to its eventual fate? I doubt it, but we'll never know. I'm not belittling America's contributions in WWII, but there was plenty of heroism and sacrifice amongst your allies as well. My uncle, for one, who died at twenty-one when his bomber crashed over Germany. One of those stinking Europeans you have so little time for.

Marcus,

did a European bully you at school?

Tattered ego;

The financial collapse of the USSR was the result of escalation of the nuclear arms race by the Reagan administration. The USSR's generals demanded that their nation's economy devote enough resources to maintain relative parity with the US to the greatest possible degree. As a result, its entire Soviet economy was diverted to producing what is in economic terms a useless comodity. It simply could no longer afford to hold its evil empire together and went into bankruptcy. In fact this process bankrupted both governments but the USSR's government was its entire economy, the US's only about 16 to 20 percent. One third of America's national debt today, about 3 trillion dollars was the price the US government paid to achieve this goal. (Europe and Japan should be taxed to pay for the bulk of it.)

That the USSR was destroyed by being lured into an economic war it could not win is a fact of history. That you are tired of that truth is a symptom of your contempt for for that fact, one your inferior civilization could not possibly have duplicated. It didn't have the resources and more importantly it didn't have the political will to use them if it had had them. Had it not happened, the USSR would still exist. Had NATO, America's legal mechanism for defending Europe from the USSR not existed and Western Eruope been allowed to fall into the hands of the Soviet empire as merely more of its captive slaves, it would be exactly like the Eastern European captive nations were at the end of the cold war. Destitute and dependent on the USSR for its meager subsidies. As it is they depend on handouts from the more affluent nations of the EU. The UK's tax money goes to build roads and bridges in Hungary because it can't afford its own having had its economy shattered by Communism.

RJB, there were no Europeans in any class when I went to school. It is hard for me to recall a single foreigner in all the years I went to primary and secondary school. Even African Americans and Asian Americans were the rare exception. I grew up in an almost all white world that had few if any immigrants, was homophobic, and a typical middle class American suburb of that era. I did not come to detest European civilization until much later as an adult when I began to fully understand and appreciate what it was and is. But I must admit the seeds were sown when I studied American and world history as a child. I think living in Europe and seeing it first hand, knowing what kind of people Europeans are and the sharp contrast compared to Americans helped fuel the fire. As time goes on and I continue to watch, my attitude becomes even more resolute. This incident regarding Scotland came as no surprise to me. Betrayal is one characteristic I find endemic in all Europeans I've known or seen. They are not to be trusted for one second. You don't dare turn your back on them or even blink unless you are prepared for the most terrible of consequences. Eventually America will disengage itself and when it comes, it will be long overdue.

Marcus: The way forward is for more engagement, rather than less.

"You don't dare turn your back on them or even blink unless you are prepared for the most terrible of consequences."

To draw such such sweeping conclusions about a plethora of peoples and societies astonishes me. It smacks of ignorance and rank paranoia. You write well--I know you aren't as dumb as that statement makes you sound. How do you justify it?

On the subject of the USSR, I think you are discounting Gorbachev's role in bringing the USSR into the modern age. It may have been unintended, but his policies of perestroika and glasnost as well as the palpable unrest in the Soviet satellite states made reforms in the USSR inevitable. Reagan's threats of a missile shield were empty then as now. If not, why didn't he build it? Oh wait, maybe he and Ollie North were busy in Nicaragua and Iran interfering in the "sovereignty of individual people over their own lives."

Also, if we could dispense with the petty transpositions of my screen name this conversation could take on the mature tone it deserves.

Just saying.

Teeter totter;

"On the subject of the USSR, I think you are discounting Gorbachev's role in bringing the USSR into the modern age."

What planet were you living on? Gorbachev was desperate to save a failed system that was in the process of dying any way he could. The only differences between Gorbachev and his predecessors was that he was not a murdering thug with blood on his hands and he was educated by someone not under complete control of the KGB. He was intelligent but he was handicapped by being tied inextricably to doomed systems of governance, economics, had an implacable enemy that would not yield and an equally implacable military that demanded approximate military parity at any sacrifice. His efforts to create Communism with a kinder gentler face as Czechoslovakia had tried in 1968 were doomed to fail even if there hadn't been the pustch by the hard liners. To this day, Gorbachev is a died in the wool believer in Communism. It also became impossible to keep the reality of the outside world a secret in the then emerging information age any longer. Yeltsin said himself when visiting a supermarket in Washington DC that if average Russians knew it was like this in America they'd be revolting against the government again that very day.

"Reagan's threats of a missile shield were empty then as now. If not, why didn't he build it?"

You really do live on another planet. Reagan didn't threaten anything. He said he wanted to research and eventually deploy a defensive shield against missile attacks to prevent nuclear war. The Soviets were angry about it because they couldn't afford to do the same. They pointed to the treaty that forbade deployment of such a system. But the US was nowhere near ready to do anything besides research. Reagan said that when the time came, he'd offer them the technology for free so that they could build their own. Like all such treaties the ABM treaty had an escape clause that would have allowed the US to terminate its obligations under it. Over 20 years later, many people including me don't believe it would work at all. Even if it could, it would take thousands of them, maybe even tens of thousands to prevent an arsenal the size of the USSR's from successfully attacking the US. Clearly it was not intended to facilitate an American nuclear first strike on the USSR. That would have been impossible. How ludicrous it was for Russia to suggest that the proposed 20 ABMs to be installed in Eastern Europe was a threat to them...and now they've admitted their objections to it were a canard.

"To draw such such sweeping conclusions about a plethora of peoples and societies astonishes me..."

That is because you fail to see what fatal shortcominmgs they have in common. You make the mistake of focusing on their differences when it is their similarities that are most striking.

"The way forward is for more engagement, rather than less."

For what purpose, to try to save Europe from militant Islam? It can't be done. To try to save Europeans from each other? That can't be done either. Besides, why should anyone in America care any longer what happens to Europe? Europeans having messed up the world for over a millenium and now having messed up their own continent for a few centuries, it's time for Americans to cut the ties President Washington warned against forming in the first place and return to concerning itself with its own problems. Besides, at the moment, that's all it can afford to do anyway.

Marcus, I'm going to give up after this, but I have to ask--are your ancestors not those Europeans you claim to despise?

well Marcus.... how about just do it? Take all your soldiers and nuclear missiles and whatsoever else you have here away if they are serving no purpose at all for the US. They certainly are not serving any for us (or is it that the US needs places in Europe in order to move soldiers from the states to places where it likes to play war such as Iraq as hardly any plane can fly that distance without stopping and travelling by ship takes too long?) You really seem to think we actually care about those weapons don't you? Well maybe that is because all your impressions from Europe are from the 70s. For once and for all they have no value at all for us and thereby threatening us with taking them away is erm.. pointless.

Unlike most Americans, Europeans are not that afraid that as soon as the American troops are goners over here Russia will take it's chance and attack or even nuke us. I even think that only since your last election the American president cares more about human rights than the Russian one. Seeing other countries such as Iran, NKorea, Pakistan and the recent behaviour of Israel there is even a list of countries that is far more likely to get involved into a mjaor war in the near future. And Russia is not on that list.

tater;

My ancestors were Europeans who were smart enough to see at an early age that there was no future for them in Europe and took their chances by leaving for America never to return. I will be grateful to them all of my life for the risk they took and that I am a beneficiary of their courage. Having seen it for myself first hand, I knew why they concluded there had to be a better place to spend their lives.

Sarah Phlegm;

If it were up to me, I would not put one more American life at risk, spend one more American dollar on stationing troops in Europe, not for one more day. I'd pull out of NATO on zero notice along with pulling out of the UN, WTO, NAFTA, and many other treaties that are not in the interest of the American people. America did not "play" in Iraq, the invasion was a grave decision, the result of a perceived threat to America's national security. Whether that perception was correct or not is still unknown, the rantings of Europeans and the American left notwithstanding. It hardly matters now. With the US pulling out, Iraqis will be free to kill each other as they see fit and stand up or succumb to the growing military juggernaught of Iran. I see no reason for America to waste its blood or treasure defending Iraqis either. Most of them seemed to want us to leave anyway. I wonder just how happy they'll be when we're gone. We have an old saying here; be careful what you wish for, your wish may come true.

I have no doubt that Europe is America's true enemy and that all offers of friendship are false ploys for some sinister and cynical purpose. The creation of modern China as conceived by President Nixon and Secretary of State Kissenger is already having monumental ramifications in the balance of economic and political power in the world, much to the disadvantage of Europe. I just hope the Chinese figure out how to duplicate my favorite Scotch...at one fifth the cost.

#30,MA2.

Yawn,

Bore= Tiressome person or thing ; nuisance.Weary by tedious talk or dullness.

"If it were up to me, I would not put one more American life at risk, spend one more American dollar on stationing troops in Europe, not for one more day. I'd pull out of NATO on zero notice along with pulling out of the UN, WTO, NAFTA, and many other treaties that are not in the interest of the American people."

I have no doubt you would. Though I tend to think that not every American thinks the way you do, this is somewhat one of the sources for stereotypes considering all Americans as selfish egocentric people (which of course far not all of them are). Especially after you really tried to explain to me that the Bronx was the toughest area in the entire world to grow up in - well actually thank you as it took me a while to stop laughing about you on that one :-)

If one thing doesn't serve the needs of the American people directly you don't support it - one example would be Kyoto. The long (as it happens already maybe not so long!) term effects such as stronger hurricans, at your very shores and drier summers resulting in more forest fires during summer are not really put into context with the named protocol in America are they? With no hurricans taifoons or other catastrophic winds and forest fires being the only issue Europe should be more leaned back about global warming than most other areas of the world, yet we don't.

"The creation of modern China as conceived by President Nixon and Secretary of State Kissenger is already having monumental ramifications in the balance of economic and political power in the world, much to the disadvantage of Europe."

After having seen how "well" the latest Chinese car (named Brilliant or something) did in an EuroNCAP crash test I am very little concerned that any key industries will have to close down here in the near future because of China.
I think the capacities to produce cars in the US have shrunken far more than those in Europe during this crisis, so what makes you sure that China is expanding at the expense of Europe?

Speaking of cars I am seriously curious what GMs real plans for Opel are :-)

"I have no doubt that Europe is America's true enemy..."

I am also somewhat curious what literature you used for that history study. I agree with you that hardly any nation ever did anything without having their own aims they wanted to achieve by what they did. Hwoever that is as true for America as it is for European nations. If I would read "Mein Kampf" without putting it into the context I would probably also hate all jews ad everything not Aryan. What I want to say is that while studying literature written during your wars with Britain one should bear in mind that they probably didn't really want to put Britain in a very bright kind of light.

Sarah Phlegm;

"With no hurricans taifoons or other catastrophic winds and forest fires being the only issue Europe should be more leaned back about global warming than most other areas of the world..."

The way I hear it, Europe's headed for an ice age. Makes me want to go out and buy a used SUV and drive till I drop. They get about as much gas mileage as a Rolls Royce, 8 miles to the gallon. Only wealthy people in England and Germany and MEPs are allowed to drive vehicles that get that kind of mileage. But that's not a very efficient way to accelerate the process. Maybe I should just go down to Brazil and help the farmers burn down the Amazon.

I think India and China are also feeling the effects. They don't seem concerned about the consequences either. If I were you I'd do what I did here in America, move to higher ground.

"After having seen how "well" the latest Chinese car (named Brilliant or something) did in an EuroNCAP crash test I am very little concerned that any key industries will have to close down here in the near future because of China."

The Germans probably laughed at the first Japanese cameras too. They aren't laughing anymore. Canon and Nikon outsell Leica probably around 100,000 to one. I can buy a Chinese made wristwatch that keeps better time than a $3000 Rolex for about 5 dollars. By the time the Chinese are done, what's left of the European auto industry will have moved there too.

"If I would read "Mein Kampf" without putting it into the context I would probably also hate all jews ad everything not Aryan."

If you're a European, you probably already do. Yesterday it was reported that Madonna was booed in Roumania for lamenting the widespread discrimination against the Roma while she was on stage. You either forgot or didn't read that I witnessed overt German discrimination against Jews with my own eyes in France at a Rathskeller in a trade show in Bordeaux France in 1973. It made me wonder why America was defending Germany instead of helping the USSR take it apart. The French still hated the Germans too.

"What I want to say is that while studying literature written during your wars with Britain one should bear in mind that they probably didn't really want to put Britain in a very bright kind of light."

Nobody had to skew the facts of history to put Britain "in the dock", all they had to do was present the facts as they were. And among those who participated in the oppression of the American colonists were Britian's Hessian mercenaries.

#32 Seraphim 85.

With the 70 year anniversary of the UK & Germany entering WW2 coming soon,
history has taught that you can not reason with one who is unreasnable.
MA2 will not see the other side on any issue,its his way or nothing,even
when the facts prove him wrong.To argue with him is as beneficial as arguing with the TV.
The UK has been slow to intergrate with mainland Europe,
but is slowly accepting our future is closely linked.All countrys of this world have periods of history that we wish could have been different,but we all inherit our history and can do nothing to change that.We must all learn from the past & not make the same mistakes again.
The way Germany gave up the mighty Mark for the general good of west Europe is to be admired.The way Germany picked its self up after the terrible events of WW2 is to be admired.The quality of German engineering
machine tools,vechicles,cars & any manufacturing goods, makes one proud to be European as the quality is simply the best in this world.


Regards....

"I witnessed overt German discrimination against Jews with my own eyes in France at a Rathskeller in a trade show in Bordeaux France in 1973."

Bang up to date as usual Marcus! Was this the same guy selling cheap medicine to the Canadian Govt?

"The way I hear it..."

You may want to doublecheck your sources. It is getting warmer here not colder.

"I think India and China are also feeling the effects. They don't seem concerned about the consequences either."

especially China is not concerned about many things apart from keeping the system they run right now the way it is by all possible means (e.g. the Green Wall)

"all they had to do was present the facts as they were."

The same kind of facts that proved that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction I assume? (which strangely nobody ever has discovered)

And by the way thanks for the latest news from 1973. I don't think many things changed from those days on. Are black people allowed to vote by now in the US?


#34 ukwales:

Thank you for your kind words.

I think you are right about arguing with the TV, except for the point that the TV offers different kinds of channels so that the things you watch are not only repeats from the 70s like posts from MA2 ;-)

I don't actually think adopting the Euro was a bad decision. It may have been a risk at first when it was a project never seen before. But the producing indutries save a lot of money as they no longer have to insure deals on value changes for various currencies. The only issue about it is older people complaining that everything became more expensive with the Euro. If you however add the inflation rates (which were significantly lower in the last years with the Euro than they were in the las decade of the Mark) to the price developments then most things became cheaper and not more expensive.
And it is possible to travel to a long list of countries without having to do weird maths whenever you start shopping as we had to before with Italy and Spain. I even thought it was weird when I stayed some months in Sweden to think in another currency though the Swedish Kronor was 0.1 Euro so the maths were not impossible ;-)
Also the ECB inherited most of the values of the former Bundesbank such as not doing what the goverment wants to reach short time goals, but to keep prices stable as it's only target. So it is not that necessary to be able to control it as a state. I think the ECB is doing a far better job than the Fed with their very jumpy interest rates. However one has to admit that they really had to act like that lately as previous wrong decisions got them in this position.

Maybe (and I hope so) sooner or later the British people will see those advantages as well. Especially as your economy relies a lot more on fiscal products one would assume that you would highly benefit from all those additional humans able to invest into these products without the risk of currency devaluation. Until that day comes we'll keep showing you that it can work out as well as it does now. As there are right now more people in Iceland in favour of joining the Eurozone than there are in favour of joining the EU, the Euro can't be the worst thing we have to offer to others :-)

Unlike some medias may sometimes suggest we don't dislike Britian or its people (well maybe with the exception of those days when there are soccer matches between our national teams ;-) ) When I first came here i was surprised if not shocked about the sometimes very high tensions by some of the people writing here.

The thing about inheriting history is true and so the first time I ever felt a bit proud to be German was when the World cup in 2006 became the four weeks long party that it was without any notable incidences and so many people from all over the world having a nice time here.


#35 paulcrossleyiii:

I think so. Maybe when you grow up in the Bronx the "toughest region in this entire world" your short time memory suffers so severely that you can only recall things that have happened 30 years ago or longer :-)