±«Óãtv

So dear old Beeb didn't get the full award, how sad!
I do hope that this will mean they will have to use their imagination and come up with good programming, instead of endless repeats of repeats of repeats,,,,,,,,etc,etc,etc.

Big Brother,,,,,,,,WOW.
I have never actually watched this, never have been a voyeur.
However, one can not avoid the the explosion of so called racist comments.
Maybe I'm a cynic, but this program always manages to grab headlines and so enhances the viewing figures. I believe this to be just another ploy. I wonder how much money has been paid out to the participants.

Oh dear, the ±«Óãtv are going to have to live without a licence fee increase galloping ahead of inflation, are they? How sad. However will they manage? Is my memory deceiving me, or is it just two or three years back that they had thumping great increases running way ahead of inflation? And now they are down to their last few pence.

'Jailed radical Islamic cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri has been told to pay back more than £1m in legal aid spent defending him against race-hate charges' [1]

Who says justice is dead, let alone without a sense of humour :)

Those declaring BB racist should take note.

vikingar

SOURCES:

[1]

Justin got that outfit for seventy-five quid? He was robbed...

The newsnight page is too complicated to post a comment so I will go away never to return.

Bill

So the ±«Óãtv aren't getting all the money they asked for. Great. Maybe that means that they'll start to look into the money they waste every day, such as on Jonathan Ross's salary, the new graphics on Match of the Day that stop working when teams score more than 4 goals, Garth Crooks (what does he do!), sending far too many people to Australia to cover the cricket (Manish Bhasin was on air for no more than 5 minutes each day during the test matches), using two newsreaders on the 6 o'clock news when one newsreader can handle the 10 o'clock bulletin, the nonsense of scheduling two-part programmes across Sunday and Monday evenings which means that people can't watch them, then finding out that the programmes don't have a scheduled repeat, the programmes that get shown via "the red button" which people don't know about because they aren't properly covered in Radio Times.

That's right Mr Thompson - hit them where they hurt the most. The ±«Óãtv is held in highest regard for its drama and children's programmes, so these are exactly the areas that ±«Óãtv management will threaten to weild the greatest cuts. You are right - the money would be much better spent on making copy cat programmes like "Just the two of us" available on wrist watches via 3G technology!

The idea that capitalism can't be the model used to combat climate change is simply wishful thinking by old anti capitalists - the fact is that industry and commerce are responding far more quickly and with more effect than government and non profit organizations.
The future can only be changed with public demand driving profit making companies to change - other organisations have a role to play (government could link farm subsidies to production of biofuel crops for example),but without big buisness taking part there will not be the change needed.

Re Licence Fee
Imagine the ±«Óãtv did not exist.Does anyone really believe that in this internet and digital age that were anyone to propose the creation of a broadcasting organisation funded by a tax levied under threat of imprisonment that anybody would take such a proposal seriously?I can see no justification for the continual existence of a tax funded ±«Óãtv.It is an absurdity.

AT LAST! i feel i've been waiting years for this.

i lived in colombia for a couple of years in the mid-90s. The effects of cocaine on civil society and ordinary colombians cannot be overestimated. your film could have gone very much further into how intractable the problem is; how neighbouring Andean countries have largely moved on from violent insurgencies, while Colombia remains mired in a filthy war.

whenever i face a very animated, snot-dribbling hyper-confident party person it all comes back to me.

Thanks Newsnight, about time too.
(PS the music sucked though - why not colombian music?)

Thank you (finally) for bringing excessive consumption and the need for a revised economic model into the environmental debate. This point has largely been overlooked by mainstream media because it is advertising (ie. consumption) which generally pays the bills.

Buy less, use less, consume less.

Please, make this point more often so that, when people are faced with a product in a store, they actually question if they really do need that new outfit, gadget, phone, etc.

There is some justified fear that a drop in consumption will cause the economy to slow. Perhaps this is just something we will need to accept if we are going to tackle the issue of global warming in a realistic way.

What is worse: receiving a smaller share dividend next quarter or leaving your children with a large inheritance but a world which can no longer support them when you are gone?

Thank you (finally) for bringing excessive consumption and the need for a revised economic model into the environmental debate. This point has largely been overlooked by mainstream media because it is advertising (ie. consumption) which generally pays the bills.

Buy less, use less, consume less.

Please, make this point more often so that, when people are faced with a product in a store, they actually question if they really do need that new outfit, gadget, phone, etc.

There is some justified fear that a drop in consumption will cause the economy to slow. Perhaps this is just something we will need to accept if we are going to tackle the issue of global warming in a realistic way.

What is worse: receiving a smaller share dividend next quarter or leaving your children with a large inheritance but a world which can no longer support them when you are gone?

After 20 years of teaching in F.E. in Dickens' home city, I did notice that the behaviour of some of our home-grown young women reminded me of Nancy's love for the "Bill Sykes" values of our national culture. Plain, rough speaking, calling a spade a spade and a Jade a jade.

I met it again teaching Literacy and Numeracy hundreds of miles away from London where there were fewer interested, foreign faces and accented voices to lighten the burden of the "I ain't bovvered" brigade.

The Bill and Nancy outlook was usually accompanied by a violent dislike and ridicule of polite manners, careful speech and dignified behaviour. A fellow student of mine at North London Poly in the 1970's was a real life Afghan princess and she behaved just like Shilpa.

The Big Brother house seems like a hostage taker's hideout, with the desperation in there filmed by Channel 4. I hope Shilpa isn't developing the Copenhagen Complex and is going to turn into a Pattie Hearst.

Like Elspeth, I was very happy to see some hard questions about capitalism on the ±«Óãtv. Many people for a long time have been saying that an economic system based on continuous growth, not to mention poverty/inequality and viewing the planet as just a set of 'resources', is incompatible with developing an ecologically intelligent culture.

I would love to see the ±«Óãtv develop this more, showing how alternative economic systems are developing around the world, including worker controlled factories in Argentina, explorations in Participatory Economics in the US and worker's cooperatives in the UK.

More importantly, I'm excited to know that more and more people are thinking about this for themselves - what kinds of lives do you want to have? how do you want to relate to the environment of which you are a part? What kinds of economic relationships would help make this happen? What alternatives are there to capitalism?

These discussions are happening in post-capitalist networks, ecopsychology groups, and in everyday life. Hopefully this broadcast will contribute to those ongoing discussions.

To save the planet we need to consume less and develope smart ways to do so.It is folly to think that capitalist organisations will provide the solutions as growth of profit to survive is the no 1 objective within capitalism.

Unowned organisations need to get into serious business to replace their capitalist counterparts.

Organisations like Geenpeace, Amnesty and the Red Cross.

Green peace may supply fuel and compete with BP, Friends of the Earth run supermarkets and compete with Tsco.. maybe Amnesty move into media/publishing etc.

As they generate economic power and momentum they can then replace the capitalist donations which pay for and influence political decisions.

With economic power the unowned organisations can create influential marketing messages for us explaining that to be responsible is to be happy, and reverse the baloney that to consume more is to be happy.

The consumers will choose the alternative suppliers consuming less and become happy in their lives in a world which will be fit for their children to live in.

The unowned producing companies can feed people who are starving to death in the poverty regions of the planet. They can fund serious programs to educate the people in areas of conflict so that conflicting people can see that we are all the same - world peace tell me why not!

There may be a talent exodus from capitalist organisations into the new unowned company framework as individuals realise the costs of capitalism.

Within the new framework the unowned companies would be expected to subdivide and compete with one another to ensure best service for consumers.

Consumers will be ‘all powerful’ directing their purchases to those suppliers which, 1 supply product which cares for the planet, and 2, which direct profit into projects to encourage global cooperation and harmony.

An open market must be retained with free individual decisions.

Problem solved!

RACIST?

"Ms Goody's mother Jackiey Budden, who was also a contestant on the show but was evicted last week, said: "Jade has never been racist, she is mixed race herself and suffered racist abuse as a youngster" [1]

Now that is interesting development.

I wonder if her parental mix (details please) will appease those looking to exploit the racist story here (when there is none).

vikingar

SOURCES;

[1]

I am studying gender at uni at the moment and I think racist or not one thing this does show is the absolute burial of 70s and 80s prolitariat feminism as an arguement forever.

The arguement that women share non confrontational, more humane, caring values (becuase they are mothers), and that they would never have built neauclar weapons just doesn´t stick. This kills that arguement in it´s tracks. It shows us they have just as many faults as us men.

It may not be the case in the playground, but in general most men grow out of excluding other men from their social groups in this way, at least in their private lives (it may be different in the workplace where a structural order is imposed). However dominant men are over other men there are normally times of reconciliation, of self reflection, guilt about the surpression of their mates and some kind of male bonding, almost attoning for their sins as it were occurs.

Very often and in this case in point, I don´t see that with women, get a bad reputation with another set of women and your dammed for life. I can´t see her ever really feeling guilty (not just saying she feels guilty) about calling the indian lady a pappadum. I can´t see the situation improving until the group is broken up and reorganises. I think when average women hate, they really really hate in a way which is sometimes more extreme than between
normal blokes.

The whole idea of prolitariat feminism was a 20 year long constant attack on "evil man". The rhetoric used to describe men and their actions were often evil and dehumanising too, ideas such as men control womens ability to reproduce through raping or threatening to rape. Men contracting women through marriage (they had consented to) in order exercise control over thier reproductive organs for their own purposes. Very extreme and condemming.

Here we see exactly the same thing with groups of women, proving thus they are just as confrontational as men even to the extent of the dehuminisation of another woman as a inhuman object ripe for eating namely a "pappadum". And this is relentless and unforgiving, there is no pat on the back, no attempt to see things her way, no asking yourself if you would like the same done to you. QED feminists!!!

Feel free to argue back though, I just thought it was interesting.

Sorry a correction to my comment. The correct terminology as used in the book Theorising Gender by Lennon, Alsop and Fizsimmons is actually patriarchy or patriachal feminism. in the third chapter entitiled The Social Constuction of Gender. My mistake.

H.

Very interesting film about Colombia----surprised no-one has made a film about this subject before. If this is an example of the kind of stuff that "Oh my Newsnight" produces then Jeremy's worries about dumbing down are unfounded. It was powerful stuff and completely unique. It would have been interesting to have known a little bit about Matthew Bristow's background and how he came to make the film, in your introduction.

"If this is an example of the kind of stuff that "Oh my Newsnight" produces then Jeremy's worries about dumbing down are unfounded"

Agreed - but Newsnight, like most of the ±«Óãtv's news and current affairs, wasn't dumb to begin with - so this sort of thing is just a bonus. Unfortunately that is not true of all the ±«Óãtv's programming. Science has been especially badly hit in recent years and given that the last episode of Horizon I saw couldn't have been any dumber if it'd been researched, written and presented by Jade, perhaps the ±«Óãtv should consider extending the experiment.

If millions of viewers are happy to watch cheap trash like BB, I can't see what's so smart and creative about Mark Thomson's success in retaining Jonathan Ross for a few million less than he might otherwise have had to pay either. The ±«Óãtv should be investing in talent, not wasting vast sums of money paying for a celebrity status premium it has itself fostered. A clever and creative business move on the entertainment side might have been something like luring Amanda Congdon away from Rocketboom while she was still going cheap.

"Jade Goody, unaware of the controversy brewing around her, continued to make allegedly racist comments today - calling her housemate Shilpa "Poppadom" - Ireland Online

.... err mainstream British comedy & society, still historically still refer to our closest neighbours as:

- Germans as ..... KRAUTS ….. (food type)
- French as ..... FROGS ……….(amphibian)

perspective please :)

STEREOTYPES:

If we want to talk about stereotypes based on race & culture, that is piped into home around the world, heavily watched & mimicked by the worlds youngest generations …

… then what about that great cultural institution The Simpson's, which has been on our screen since 1987 [0]

- Apu (character an Indian store keeper, originally overstayed, then an illegal immigrant until amnesty) [1]

The voice, the look, the practices (religious, social, language) & the story lines.

The actor who provides the voice of Apu is Hank Azaria, a 'white' American Sephardic Jew of Greek ancestry. [2a] [2b] [2c]

Happy to condemn the BB on racist claims if similar campaign raised & successful against The Simpson's & its 20 years history & success based on racial & cultural stereotypes & the differences of people.

But its apples & pears - neither are racist.

Certain groups & esp uniformed groups are looking to condemn BB as being racist, without tangible evidence & proof.

OPINIONS:

Anyone watch Question Time, never knew so many people to condemn something they have not seen period, or seen sufficient amount of to hold an informed opinion.

We would be uniformed & stupid to read something a reviewer recommends, but has never read.

Similarly, those with agendas coming out on the woodwork on this one.

Lets not confuse a clash of cultural & class & bitchiness & ignorance & personality …. in a situation design to produce ratings … edited to 'reveal' differences & conflict.

Before elevating Shilpa to Sainthood, lets remember she is an actress on a media program designed to give a boost & expose to their careers. But they have to give the machine something to work on :)

SUMMARY:

Suggest those who have an opinion of BB regarding racism actually watch enough footage to have a valid opinion (if they have a telly & access to C4)

In lieu of such do a bit of informed reading.

Excellent BB article about Racism, Contestants, Shilpa et al in The Guardian by Germaine Greer

'Why does everyone hate me?' * [4]

* Shilpa catch phrase.

A reality check on hysteria & mirror to reveal agenda.

Meantime, celeb making-up hugs & kisses all round (kiss kiss) in the house... [5]

Surprise, Surprise ... the police have been called in [6]

vikingar

SOURCES:

[0]
[1]
[2a]
[2b]
[2c]
[3]
[4]
[5]
[6]

Mr Thompson shouldn't be so sniffy about answering to 'individual politicians'for the way the ±«Óãtv is run You don't have to be a supporter of Gordon Brown or his party (I'm not) to accept that as Her Majesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer he is duty bound to keep an eye on the way in which public money is spent by the ±«Óãtv or any other body (including the EU -- my own King Charles's Head) Kirsty was on better form than usual letting the subjects talk instead of doing it herself: I hope the Beeb gets a good return on what they pay the Wark-Clements company.

Whie we're on the cult of celebrity I used to have the 30s Radio Celebrity cgarette cards. They included Sir Walford Davies, Sir Adrian Boult, Isobel Baillie, Gracie Fields, Doris Arnold, Stuart Hibberd, Freddie Grosewood etc Today's overpaid so-called celebs appearing not just on C4 but on the Beeb are a freak show by comparison.

Regfards John Parfitt

Dave @13 and Paul Mason your switched on ! The ±«Óãtv is nothing but a way for the middle and upper middle class oxbridge types to employ themselves at our expense so they can make programs that none of us has a say in. The commercial TV is nothing but monumental exploitation. Bullying which is the basis of BB is just one example.

I thought the piece (Thursday's program) on food growing in London was great. Can anyone put me in touch with this or other groups doing similar?

Reality check: Capitalism will only end when the physical enviroment is depleted i.e. when there's nothing and no-one left to exploit.

Ref David Culfon #33

"Reality check: Capitalism will only end when the physical environment is depleted i.e. when there's nothing and no-one left to exploit"

Rubbish.

Capitalism will evolve like it always has, regardless of medium/environment, to that extent it has not foreseeable end.

May end up being called something else, but in essence it will be capitalism.

btw

Q. what are you proposing as an alternative?

vikingar

Yes, the ±«Óãtv licence fee may not be the most popular bill to pay each year and it is right that there be a robust critique of how the money raised is used, and of course the ±«Óãtv management will be bound to complain. But, believe me, as an ex-pat, currently living in another European country and having lived in several others, the ±«Óãtv is clearly the national and international gold standard of broadcasting and however bad it is thought to be, it is a million miles ahead of the best elsewhere. Nurture and protect it because without it, be prepared for round the clock "Big Brother" and other similar cheap and nasty reality programmes, producing an ever lengthening list of nonentities seeking celebrity status by getting onto shows where they can behave obnoxiously with impunity

Vikingar ( 34 ) is right about the longevity and creative evolution of capitalism, and that idea has a longevity of its own in the world of Environmental Studies. I recall a book that I studied in the 1970's called "Scarcity and Growth" by Barnett and Morse, that disproved Malthusianism in food consumption and encouraged the using up of the world's available resources as fast as necessary. That would trigger the break- through technological developments that would exploit other less accessible resources and enable us all to progress. The examples given were available petroleum supplies and the untapped oil shale reserves in Canada. (I don't think they had a cosmology about an End Time though ).

I watched, in wonder as the green capitalist talked to the green social engineer, fiddeling with the detail while the planet burns.

How, I ask, is it possible to discuss such things without bringing population into the equasion?

The truth is it's people that comsume. It the most powerfull number... Lets talk about it before it's too late.

ed (40)

"You can't take the sweeties from the child" said the parent.

"Ah", said the doctor, "then we must wait for the child to be taken by the sweeties".

Let's at least see the start of the debate in the braver half of the media. I am sure you are not saying that this matter is too sensitive to be discussed... are you?

Why not start with...
"If you tax consumption, why subsidise population?"

or

"Is Sustainable Development the most dangerous oxymoron of our time?"

No lets keep it simple…
“Why are we encouraging people to have more children when the planet can’t take it?�

There, we have started already!

(ed 42)

hi again,

I am grateful for your input and links, but there is little future in people who agree agreeing to agree.

Lets ask ethical man why he thinks its ok to have lots of children and NEVER discuss population as a green issue.

thx and bye

Ref godric bj #43

"Lets ask ethical man why he thinks its ok to have lots of children and NEVER discuss population as a green issue"

Can we also include the impact from the migration of millions of foreign nationals as a green issue *

* besides socio economic, cultural & security issues & impact on scant housing, services etc.

vikingar

I haven't had a television for ten years and I can't say I miss it.I seemed to spend most of my time reaching for the remote.

I just caught 5 minutes of newsnight around three hours ago when it was still Wednesday(it's now 3:30 in the morning). You had a gentleman talking about his experience of saving someone (a young child I believe) from a fire in a car and what prompted him to do that. And then you had another gentleman whose ideas I thought were rather strange, cold and very emotioanlly detached, and sincerely thought for a moment he had psychologcial problems. I thought his evolutionary ideas lacked humanity. It should be remembered that evolution is just a theory and that on his death bed, before he met his maker, Darwin dismissed his own ideas as the ramblings of a young mind. I hope Newsnight can at least give a balanced viewpoint and whenever they invite an evolutionist to give their take on something there is a creationist next to him giving God's view on the matter. So at least people can make an informed decision and not just be given a biased one. I felt cold and empty as I listened to the evolutionist speaking and was thankful that through my own spiritual experiences I knew better.

Mark Bell

How is jade being racist? she discriminated via culture, not race. I'm a white European male and if she offensively impersonated my ascent or couldn't pronounce my French(or whatever nationality you like) name, it surely wouldn't be racist but discrimination? same goes for the name incident. Name and ascent are cultural, not genetic.

REF:VIKINGAR (No.34)

"what's the alternative?"
Vote GREEN!

It's interesting to hear of the debate in the UK over the Beebs power.

I remember reluctantly paying my TV licence when I lived in the UK, infact I took the ±«Óãtv for granted. Having moved to Asia, I really appreciate watching Newsnight and other ±«Óãtv television and radio programmes.

For all those people who are unconvinced about the ±«Óãtv I suggest you take a look at other TV stations around the world first. You'll soon realise what a blessing the corporation truely is.

Of course the beauty of it is, now, I dont have to pay a licence fee anymore.. So as an expat I would like to offer my thanks for all those who pay there licence fee. :P