±«Óãtv

26 June 2024

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bbc.co.uk/accessall

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Access All – episode 111

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Presented by Emma Tracey

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EMMA - Hello, I’m Emma Tracey and this is the ±«Óãtv’s weekly disability and mental health podcast. As part of Access All’s general election coverage we have invited representatives from the UK’s seven main political parties to take part over several episodes.

We’ve been putting your questions – and your concerns – to them. And we’ve been exploring their policies on disability and mental health.

This episode is all about the Conservative Party. We spoke to Mims Davies the Minister for Disabled People, Health and Work.

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EMMA - You're very welcome, Mims, again.

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MIMS - Hello.

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Emma - Mims. We have some questions that we're asking all of the parties. And the first one is you've got 45 seconds to tell us about you.

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MIMS - So I have been a minister for seven years. Five years at DWP. The most amazing role is the Minister of State for Disabled People, Health and Work. It's been an absolute focus for me. My dad was disabled growing up because he was attacked at work and ended up with a head injury, so we became a caring family and I've seen it from that side of life. But my mum growing up worked with disabled young adults, helping them with their transitions into the wider world, and was part of riding for the disabled and the special Olympics early on.

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Emma - Cracked it 45 seconds. Now, the next question we're asking all the parties is how many disabled candidates do the conservatives have standing for election?

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MIMS - You know, I genuinely don't know. And it's because some people declare their disability at the start and some people prefer not to share it. So I know it's being monitored, but it's not something that I'm party to, but the party is aware of. And some additional needs become clear during the campaign. So I know one of my friends, actually, who's a candidate, he has a hearing need, didn't declare it at the start, but it has a disability, so it can be a bit of a mixed picture, if that makes sense. We do have people. For example, Ben Burcombe-Filer, I understand, is standing. He has additional needs, in the, in the Southampton area. And so we have some clear disabilities that some of our candidates have and some that prefer not to be, have things focused around that, if that makes sense.

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Emma - Sure. The Disability Policy Center, quite a new think tank has done some work around this. And obviously taking into account that some people don't declare and they were able to count five conservatives. And I just wondered if, the low number, it could be down to the fact that the fund that used to be available for disabled people standing was closed, in 2020. And I know that the Disability Action Plan says that new support would come in in 2025 if conservatives, came back into government. But, you know, they've got no help at the moment. It's a snap election. It's a lot to do in a short time. And they've got the candidates have no help just now.

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MIMSÌý - Yeah, it's a real frustration because we would due, to do the update in July, which some of that guidance was ready to go. There are various things around the action plan that I had to bring forward, which I know, viewers and listeners would have loved to have seen. And that's been a real frustration.

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Emma - Well, it's interesting because there have been some pieces of the disability action plan in the manifesto, but that piece wasn't in the manifesto. Does that would that still, be looked at if you went back into government?

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MIMSÌý - ÌýSo before I, well I'm still the minister as you’ll know til the election, but before I left I signed off the group of people from all parties, who were going to advise on that next stage of what we were going to do around disability access. And that's a real frustration that I wasn't able to move that forward. But all, parties should be and rightly reaching out to make sure that candidates get the support they need. Doctor Ben Spencer was doing that for our party. And of course, we've had trailblazers like, Robert Halfon, who we've learned from, and we need to make sure that we're encouraging more people with disabilities to come forward to have that voice in Parliament.

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Emma - So let's talk about disabled people, being able to make their choice now. Another question that we're asking all parties, has your manifesto been turned into Easy read and other formats? And has that happened at the same time of its, publication?

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MIMSÌý - So ours we're waiting for the final bits of the formats to come through. I've just had some emails on that, and I was, in a connection with the party on that yesterday. They're hoping they would be ready Friday. They're not quite ready, but they should be imminent. And I will let people know as soon as it's there. But it might even be ready now.

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Emma - But that's that's really tough for especially for people with learning disabilities who might need extra time to spend on that information. Your know, some of the parties have actually released theirs already. I mean, maybe disabled people might be a bit disappointed in that even if it does arrive eventually.

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MIMSÌý -] Yeah. It's frustrating, I'll say even around the disability action plan and all of the work that I've done around the, the Lilac Review and the Buckland Review, it's always been imperative that we try to get those lined up. One of the biggest frustrations is, is having, the time to make it right in the time and space that you've got. And I found this, myself, for example, with...

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Emma -But you guys Ìýcalled the election so you knew there was very short time available.

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MIMSÌý - ÌýI was not party to that. I was, like many, expecting, through til the autumn. But, what I would say is we were very close to updating, the work around BSL with the number ten announcements as well so July I was going to have lots of things to tell you formally but they’re still in place. The disability unit must deliver on them. And those policies are there and those commitments are there. And the commitment to update Parliament in July is there on the disability, action plan. And of course, after one year, so no government coming in, including hopefully ours if we were returned, would it be able to crack on with this and the work has been done.

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Emma - So we spoke to our audience. We asked our listeners what they wanted us to talk about between in the few weeks coming up to the general election. And overwhelmingly, they said that they feel like they've been forgotten by all parties. They feel like they have not been seen. They have not been heard either before the election or during the campaigns. Now, a law firm has done some work in terms of how many times the word disability and disabled was mentioned in the various manifestos. And, according to them, the conservatives were mentioned disabled or disability seven times, which is less than any of the other major parties. And then when disabled people are mentioned, they feel like they're mentioned in tricky terms and language. That's unfair to them. So like sick, no culture and benefits lifestyle. I mean what do you say to the disabled people who feel like they've been forgotten and not seen and not heard either before or during this campaign?

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MIMSÌý - Well, I never want anyone to to feel that way. And it was my job in government to hold all departments and ministers to account through the disability unit, through the GEO working with my secretary states, both in GEO and in DWP to to make sure that's not the case, I think we need to split out very vulnerable people who were worried about their future, who need the right support, from that kind of language that, you know, may be, you know, upsetting for, for people. But I do also think that we have a responsibility to make sure that taxpayers money is well spent, is well targeted. It is there for the most vulnerable. But equally, people also, if they have a disability, as we've mentioned earlier, don't always want to be labeled by it. Look at you, you’re producer a presenter rather on the ±«Óãtv absolutely smashing it. Perhaps as a younger person you wouldn't have felt that those opportunities are there for you. I want everybody to feel that way and whatever their need, health condition or disability does not with the changing working style that we have, for example, less presenteeism, more flexibility, more tech. We're talking through tech today, not necessarily being in person. This opportunity should be there for disabled people. And one of the big focuses was around autism. The Buckland review on autism. Only 3 in 10 people with autism are working. More people want to work and we need to help them. So I think we need to make sure that, you know, when we're talking to disabled people and those people that, you know, may have contributed to what they've said to you is when, you know, not being caught up in something that isn't appropriate for them, and ultimately they know that we're going to have their backs and we're going to help them succeed.

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Emma - Well, first of all, I mean, being blind is it's I'm very glad to declare that and have always been very happy to declare that I've been a proud disabled person and proud to represent disabled people and get their voices heard, like Chloe, one of our listeners. And she said that not everybody is able to work and to push people into work when they're not able is unfair. I mean, you want to half the benefits bill. You've got a consultation on personal independence payments that has an idea of changing them to potentially vouchers and, and catalogues, which suggests a lack of trust on disabled people to get what they need. You know our audience are hearing this language. They're seeing these changes andÌý they're really worried.

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MIMSÌý - This isn't about pushing people into work that's not suitable for them. They're not confident about that they wouldn't be able to do far from it. This is completely the opposite about empowering people, as you say, with some people very confident to, you know, share their disability. Others, it may hold them back from the opportunities that are out there. So it's understanding that I think in terms of the the benefit bill, I think is very reasonable post Covid, when you see a two thirds increase, in spending post-pandemic to look at what's happened, whether it's our work with the NHS, with the joint and working health unit, to make sure that those people are getting the, the health conditions, sorted out the operations they might need..

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Emma - Yeah.

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MIMSÌý - But equally, just to conclude on on the Pip consultation, nothing is decided. It's really important disabled people and those with health conditions contribute. And they're part of this consultation that we are helping people in a way that suits them. I've had some people say to me that they don't want to be defined by their condition, and that they want to be better understood.

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Emma - Is that because, is that not because being disabled is seen as bad, you know, in the press, the language used by parties, it's being seen as like, you know, that their work shy or they want benefits or they're, they're, they're trying to, get benefits that they don't need. I mean, Chrissie got in touch with us she says she's always voted Tory, but she's really worried about the Pip consultation, and she's wondering, you know, whether benefits could be changed in a different way without hurting disabled people like her.

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MIMSÌý - Well, one of the things in there and, Chrissie, thank you for getting in touch. One of the things there as well is about the most vulnerable people who may be under the court protection, maybe never able to work, may be transitioning out of childhood. Maybe, we're bothering people too much and asking them too much, and that's what often comes through as well. Perhaps sadly, the only time they should be engaging with us, if they've got all the support and the help they need, is perhaps if they move into end of life and get those additional benefits, then so what we do need to make sure is that we're empowering those who can. And as I mentioned, autism and other realms where people feel written off helping those people. I agree with you this it can be inflammatory language if people can feel worried about this. I mentioned my dad earlier, you know, he felt devastated about not being able to work and being written off. I've seen that myself. And so, you know, we have to be careful around this, but above all, I think it's reasonable to look at the welfare budget and the way we're helping people, whether it's the changes to the WCA or the fit note changes and that early intervention. So pivoting, if maybe you've had a change health condition, pivoting you to, to move into a new sector or get new support, rather than feeling that you can't continue and go back to the role you were doing before. It’s about individual approaches, really helping people individually.

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Emma - I hear you, I hear you. You want it to be more, individual. In a word, will you continue with the Pip consultation if you return to government?

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MIMSÌý - Well, I think the way it works is you have to conclude the consultation and rightly they have contributed and the last I heard, there was a massive amount of feedback about this, and I've been really encouraging people to have their say. But there’s other bits in there that people haven’t seized on.

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Emma - Are there other bits we should be seizing on then and being worried about.

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MIMSÌý - No but the positive bits about you know, how do we help people with the biggest vulnerability? ÌýHow do we help people to, to work? And, and most importantly, you know, disabled people say they want to be heard. You've said it. This is a hearing, experience for everybody so that this understanding can properly begin across government and then holding the whole of government and sectors to account. Many employers say they want to, employ and support disabled people and those with health conditions. They just don't know how to do it. This kind of consultation can be part of that.

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Emma - Well, you know, housing Ìýthat kind of connects with work, whether you're housing is good, whether you get the mental health support you need, whether you get the the physical health support needs, there's a lot more to it, I think, than an employer say, but can we can we move on? Because I just I don't want to, you know, you've said some, some really interesting stuff, but I don't want you to have to repeat it. I mean, it says in the benefits area of the manifesto, it says crack down on fraudsters, even though, disability benefits fraud is the lowest on record it was 0.4%.

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MIMSÌý - Yeah. Why would people think cracking down on benefits fraud would mean perfectly entitled disabled people who we’re helping?

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Emma - I think it's because that line is in the manifesto, when lots of other bits of the disability action plan out isn't there. There's lots of stuff that isn't said. There's nothing on accessible housing, but there is this line and it's just.

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MIMSÌý - ÌýIt's already in play. And I would love to see more on accessible housing. I have the housing portfolio at DWP. I was responsible for raising up the local housing allowance, you know, a multi-billion uplift, to support people to be able to meet their housing costs. And working with the, champions that we have in each sector on Ìýaccess to the countryside as equally to access to housing was something I was doing in terms of holding wider government to account.

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Emma - But why is the fraud question in there then? Or the fraud line I should say.

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MIMSÌý - There is broader fraud issue. You may have seen in the papers just recently during Covid, there was a significant amount of fraud. Every time people do that, it means there's less money for the most vulnerable. And it's really important that we, you know, set those guidelines and that we are responsible for taxpayers money. That does not equate to cracking down on people who need support. And I don't want disabled people to feel that that is not the case.

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Emma - So what was the level of fraud during the pandemic in terms of disability benefits, and what were the figures there?

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MIMSÌý - Well as you say it was one of the lowest areas. There is a fraud bill planned for the next session where we would be looking at areas of where we could be making changes. And again, that is about listening and understanding. And as you say in this particular area, you know, it's not a fraud question it's a process and how things work for people, whether it is about the Pip process or the changes to the WCA or the fit note. None of this has been done for ten years. It's right as a people's needs and the working environment changes.

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Emma - I don't think anyone's, arguing that things need to change to some extent.Ìý A lot of people like James Taylor from Scope was talking about kindness, you know, bringing kindness into the process rather than, like, checking and checking and being, you know, very prescriptive for disabled people and not trust them. Could we move on to carers? We talked the last time you were on Access All about the DWP report on carer's allowance and that has actually since been published. And it basically said that it's, the allowance is failing on its own terms, that half of the people claiming have an income of under 21,000 as a family, seven out of ten of them who aren't aren't in paid work say that that's because of their caring responsibilities. Where in the manifesto is this dealt with? You know, what in the manifesto does it say is going to help? Because this has been all over the news. It’s shone a light on, the difficulties carers and their families face. What are you going to do about it?

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MIMSÌý - Well, as I say, I came from a caring family. I know how difficult it is. When my dad, became disabled, we lost our home. And I know how hard it is. So, carers are an army of, unpaid carers are an army of brilliance and if you're not a carer now, you'll need to be caring in the future or being cared for. So this touches everybody's life. ÌýThis, particular benefit. It's been there for around 40 years. It's been looked at a couple of times by the select committee, rightly so, and I had commissioned quite a lot of work on this before, the close of Parliament about how do we adapt that to, to the caseload of carers we've got now. And I was part of the all party group, I'm co-chair of that for carers, I've done a lot with carers UK. There's no simple answer to this. I think even if you speak to people like Stephen Timms and others, it's a difficult benefit to to get right. It's got a very clear cliff edge, which, you know, as you've described is problematic and I’d love to have the time to look at that again. It was a big priority for me just ask my policy officials. So yeah, any incoming government will need to have a look at this once again I'm pretty sure.

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Emma - My goodness, we're running out of time. And I really wanted to ask you about the 60,000 special school places, particularly in light of the Panorama and the profit making schools, and I really wanted to ask you, and I will ask you in one word, will the conservatives, if they go back into government, pass the mental health bill? Charities are baffled that it hasn't been passed yet.

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MIMSÌý - Yeah, I genuinely don't know the answer to that one. I'm happy to go away and get you a bit of feedback I now it very much needs updating as described with, with Carer's Allowance. You know parliamentary time is a challenge, to get everything through and, if I, if I get a chance to go back, what I can tell you is I'll continue to champion this area. Carers supporting mental health and supporting disabled people

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Emma - Just a couple of seconds. Tell me what the conservatives are offering disabled people should they go back into government on the 4th of July?

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MIMSÌý - Well, I think a chance to work where suitable. A chance to have your say about how you’re supported and what your benefits are. More potential devolution locally to how, things might work. That's also in the, the Labor manifesto. And what I think is really important is to make sure that disabled people are heard and understood through the action plan by the through the National Disability Strategy and through those really forensic looks about what works but ultimately about an individualization so disabled people can thrive but ultimately have the support that they need and the surety and dignity that we all want for them. And those are our loved ones. They're not a separate group. They are us. They are we.

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Emma - Mims Davies, thank you for joining me.

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MIMSÌý - Thank you.

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EMMA - Listening to that interview with Mims Davies from the Conservative Party was Kate Lamble. Kate’s from our sister podcast, More or Less, which tries to make sense of all the numbers around us. She’s heard the interview and has looked into how it all adds up.

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KATE - Mims Davies spoke in that interview about the increase in benefit spending, which has happened since the pandemic, suggesting there has been a two thirds increase and because of that it’s reasonable to look at what has happened.

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Now obviously, ‘benefits’ is a really broad term, but the government has used this two thirds figure to refer to the rise in spending on benefits for working age people with a disability or health condition.

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However, if we compare like with like. So, we look at incapacity and disability benefits together with carer's allowance and housing support in real terms in 2019/20 and we compare that to current spending on the same things in 2024/25 , the rise is actually around 40%Ìý not over 60%.

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So, what has happened? The Office for National Statistics says the number of people who are economically inactive because of long term sickness has risen by more than 400,000 since the start of the pandemic.

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A fifth of that growth came from people who were previously considered temporarily sick.

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Work and Pensions Secretary, Mel. Stride, has talked about mental health as part of these discussions, suggesting mental health culture had gone too far. We can see in 2023, depression, bad nerves or anxietyÌý were registered as the largest health condition for those who are economically inactive because of long term sickness.

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Although it was also the most prevalent health condition for the working age population generally.

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Most of the increase in this condition, compared to before the pandemic, has come from people reporting it as a secondary condition. The number of people reporting it as a main health condition has only increased by 14%.

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EMMA – Thank you so much to Mims Davies for talking to me. I have spoken to representatives of six of the seven UK main political parties about disability and mental health and those episodes will drop right here over the next couple of days. So stay tuned and please do get in touch with us in all the usual ways. You can email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can find us on Instagram and X @bbcaccessall

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