'I didnât even know what bisexual was'
The unique challenges that come with having a learning disability and being LGBT
Dating can be tricky at the best of times, but it can come with a unique set of challenges if you have a learning disability and are LGBT.
Ben Hunte, the ±«Óătv's LGBT correspondent, speaks to three people with learning disabilities and explores the social care barriers faced by the community.
Shaun describes how a lack of sex education at special school meant it took him a decade to come out as bisexual. Now he teaches the subject to other people with learning disabilities.
Ray talks about awkward encounters on dating apps and the challenges of navigating trans healthcare with a learning disability.
And Scott tells Ben about the prejudice he faces as a gay man with learning disabilities and why he joined an organisation called Meet and Match.
Producer Ammar Ebrahim
Studio Manager Robbie Hayward
Subscribe to the podcast on ±«Óătv Sounds or say âAsk the ±«Óătv for Ouchâ to your smart speaker.
Full transcript
emma - Hello, and welcome to the Ouch podcast. Iâm Emma Tracey, and today Iâm joined by Ben Hunte, the ±«Óătvâs LGBT correspondent, whoâs been looking into the plight of people with learning disabilities who are also LGBT. Hi, Ben.
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ben - Hi. Yes, this has been a real eye opener for me. Iâve been working on the LGBT patch for nearly two years now, and it still hits me when I hear about some of the barriers that LGBT people come up against. As a gay black man myself Iâm also a minority within a minority, and some of the stories Iâve been hearing from LGBT people with learning disabilities have genuinely shocked me. But what Iâve loved most about making this podcast is hearing how people in the community are being the change that they want to see. So the first person I want you to hear from is Shaun.
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[Music]
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BEN - Shaun, nice to meet you, albeit in these weird times.
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SHAUN - Yes, nice to meet you.
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BEN - Tell me a bit about yourself. Where are you from? How old are you? What do you do?
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ShauN - Okay. My name is Shaun Webster. Iâve got an MBE. Iâve got learning disabilities. I am 48 years old. Iâve got three children with my ex and Iâve got five children with my wife. Iâm a grandfather. I am bisexual.
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ben - Yes. Youâve a big old family.
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SHAUN - It is indeed.
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BEN - You could start an army with that family. I love it. Awesome.
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SHAUN - Tell me about it. [Laughter]
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ben - And what about your sexuality?
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SHAUN - Iâm bisexual. I came out when I was 38 years old, but I didnât know much about it, âcos special schools donât do sex education properly for people with learning disabilities, they think people like us donât have sex or relationships.
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BEN - Interesting. Tell me a bit about your learning disability.
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SHAUN - Iâve got dyslexia and Iâve got short term memory issues.
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BEN - And whatâs it been like for you being bisexual with your learning disability?
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SHAUN - It was fairly tough because I didnât understand it properly. The information I got from school was lacking, and I know just that reading up about it was fairly difficult for me. I didnât know where to turn to because I was scared, I thought I might be judged. At first, Iâll be honest with you, I thought I was going mad because I didnât understand about my sexuality, I felt very lonely and isolated.
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BEN - Itâs difficult, because even just to understand, just gender identity, sexuality on, like, the most basic level it took me so long, so long. I remember I was watching every movie I could, I was Googling, I was trying to find out, like, what are these feelings because I genuinely felt like the only person out there.
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SHAUN - I was having a lot of different feelings for men and women, but I didnât understand it, it was just very overwhelming. I went to the doctors because I felt very down about it, and the doctors didnât understand me. They were trying to push me tablets but I didnât want tablets, and it was a really horrible experience. And then I talked to my support worker about it, I told her my feelings and she knew what I was talking about. She said, "Shaun, I think youâre bisexual."
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BEN - Ah, there we go. So, overall how long do you think it took to actually come to terms with it, until your support worker kind of said, like, "Youâre probably bisexual," how long was that overall?
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SHAUN - I think over a decade.
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BEN - Wow. And do you think that thatâs quite a similar experience to things that other people go through?
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SHAUN - I reckon so, because the information for people with learning disabilities could be a lot better. I think schooling needs to be better for people with learning disabilities because at the time I went to a special school and they were more bothered about having babies. They didnât talk about being gay, bisexual, nonbinary, transgender, none of that.
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BEN - Now, the support worker Shaun mentioned was key in helping him come out as bisexual. Support workers are there to make sure that people with learning disabilities can live the lives that they want to lead. So theyâll help them with things such as financial advice and housing and cooking and all those kinds of things. Theyâre also sometimes referred to as care workers.
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Shaun and I were joined on the call by his colleague, Dominique. They both work for a charity called Change UK, and Dominique joined us to explain a little bit more about the work that her and Shaun do.
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dominique - Hi, Iâm Dominique. Iâve been working at Change for over three years now. Itâs a human rights organisation for people with learning disabilities. Iâve worked with Shaun over all that time on different LGBTQ+ projects.
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BEN - Can you tell me a bit more about the training that you do for people with learning disabilities?
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dominique - We do have an exploring sex and relationships session which, you know, we cover everything from the difference between friendships and relationships. We talk about consent, sex, masturbation, abuse and, you know, safe sex and different options. The main thing is weâre reaching out to a community and weâre actually asking them what are the barriers that you face and what do you think the solutions are? And we have more of an LGBTQ+ rights and awareness session, because this is open to everyone who might have those feelings, might not have those feelings but would like to learn more.
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SHAUN - Like today weâve talked about masturbating, making sure people understand having it in private places. And weâve talked about when they have sex, that they know where to have it in private places and not in the open. And they need to understand that because having sex, it can be very special, very loving, and we talked about the feelings about that too.
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BEN - Yes. And what motivated you to start providing it? So youâve got your personal experiences in there, but tell me a bit more about that, like what was the push that made you say, this needs to happen?
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SHAUN - Iâm very passionate about it, âcos Iâm bisexual and in the past if I didnât have friends and family and support workers there for me Iâd be in a right mess.
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EMMA - Now Ben, itâs great to see how Shaun has turned his negative experience into a positive one and now heâs providing sex education to other people with learning disabilities.
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BEN - Yes, we absolutely love to see it. So itâs important to remember that sex education was made compulsory in all schools last year, but obviously there are so many people like Shaun who left school long ago and without the work of charities they wouldnât actually get sex education. Now, we decided to end on a bit of a fun note, so Shaun and I decided to talk about our celebrity crushes.
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SHAUN - I had a bit of a crush on Adam Ant.
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BEN - Whoâs Adam Ant? Whoâs this? [Laughter] Wait, Iâm going to Google at the same time as you say it. Go on.
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SHAUN - You donât know who Adam Ant was? [Laughs]
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BEN - Am I really ignorant? Hold on. Who is Adam Ant? Adam Ant isâŠ
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SHAUN - He was a famous singer in the â80s.
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BEN - Boo, I have no idea who that is. [Laughs] I thought Iâd look at the photo and be, like, oh yeah. I have no idea who that is. Wow. Okay, tell me about Adam Ant?
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SHAUN - He was a famous pop singer in the early â80s. He used to dress up like a highway man. [Laughter] I actually had a crush on him, but I didnât understand it at the time.
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BEN - Yeah, heâs cute. Oh, look at those cheekbones. Okay. Heâs giving me, like, Harry Styles vibes now.
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SHAUN - He was a very beautiful man.
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[Music]
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BEN - Speaking to Shaun was great and I loved that heâd reached a happy place in his journey. I wanted to speak to someone who was at an earlier stage in their journey though, so I had a chat with Ray. Heâs a 21 year old trans man who identifies as having a learning disability. Ray also has dyslexia, dyspraxia and ADHD, which he says have a huge impact on how he navigates trans health service and the dating world.
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ray - Hi.
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BEN - Hi, is that Ray?
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ray - Yeah, speaking.
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BEN - Hello, itâs Ben calling. How are you doing?
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ray - I donât know why I just said speaking. Iâm good thank you. [Laughter]
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ben - Where are you based at the moment?
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ray - Brighton.
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BEN - Oh⊠Iâm so jealous. I feel like I need the sea in my life and just the wind in my face and just feeling fresh. Talk to me about your love life. Whatâs going on with that?
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ray - Oh, boy! Itâs a train wreck.
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ben - No! A train wreck? In what way is it a train wreck? Why?
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ray - I actually went through a break up recently because obviously it was going through, like, lockdown and all of that so we couldnât see each other for a really long time, and thatâs not easy, like, for anyone, but for me⊠I mean, I canât blame it entirely on the ADHD, my ADHD as a scapegoat I think, but a lot of it was due to, like, issues with my ADHD Iâd say.
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BEN - How long were you together?
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ray - A year.
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BEN - A year? OhâŠ
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ray - Yeah.
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BEN - Thatâs a chunk of time. Iâm sorry, thatâs really annoying. Well yes, we will talk deeper about that. Iâm going to start off with a question around the challenges of being trans with a learning disability.
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ray - I mean, the biggest thing is it makes it a lot more difficult to access services, so for instance, like, obviously thereâs GICs which are a whole minefield in itself. Mental health services are really difficult to access when youâve got a learning disability because they have a checklist of symptoms and, like, things you need to be able to explain properly. And for me, I have dyspraxia which is motor oral and verbal so that means that I really have trouble getting my thoughts into words and, like, properly expressing myself and expressing how I feel.
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BEN - Yes, that canât be easy when the whole way through trans healthcare you have to not only defend yourself but fight for the healthcare that you want.
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ray - Exactly.
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BEN - And also you need to keep receipts of everything youâve said to everybody, everything youâve done. I canât imagine having any barriers in that way.
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Ray - Yes, you have to keep a paper trail.
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BEN - Wow. So, if youâre keeping that paper trail and youâre struggling with it then what happens?
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ray - [Laughs] Not good things, especially because of my ADHD, I am so forgetful. So, like there was one time where I was trying to get my name and gender changed on my passport and I was panicking about it because I knew I couldnât forget anything, and I went into the passport place and I thought I had everything and I did have everything, except for my old passport.
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BEN - OhâŠ
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Ray - Which is the most important thing to have.
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BEN - And they said, "Itâs time to leave." They said, "Get out."
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ray - Yeah, basically they kicked me out.
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BEN - And what are you doing about this? What are you trying to change?
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ray - Iâm part of something called the NHS Youth Forum, and what we do is we basically work with NHS England and NHS Improvement to try and improve children and young peopleâs services.
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BEN - Nice. And how are you finding that?
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ray - Itâs brilliant. Like, I have had a lot of really, really exciting opportunities. Right now my group is working on improving trans nonbinary access to healthcare. So what weâre doing is producing leaflets hopefully with basically, like, tips for trans and nonbinary people. Things like how to change your name and title and gender because thatâs something thatâs actually so much harder than it should be. And just starting with you should tell your GP about your transition and weâre hoping that GPs will also be able to pick that up.
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EMMA - Okay, so Ray is trying to work within the NHS system to make it better, not just for trans people with learning disabilities but for trans people across the board?
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BEN - Yes. So heâs trying to change things from within. And I really love that about him, because Iâve spoken to so many trans people who genuinely struggle with this stuff. And obviously for Ray those challenges only increase with his learning disability. Next we talked about dating apps.
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I want to know, like, what do you think is one of the biggest issues with dating apps, or the way that you use dating apps?
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ray - I really struggle to read tone. So, like, the other day a girl on Bumble messaged me, and she was, like, "You seem so bubbly," just like, no explanation, no punctuation, and I was like, what does that mean? What does that mean?
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BEN - I mean, surely thatâs a compliment, no?
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ray - But, like person punch- like an exclam- like, my words are not working today, have some punctuation please.
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BEN - That is so interesting. I feel like we would be the perfect match then because I over punctuate. [Laughs]
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ray - Yeah, exactly.
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BEN - I love an exclamation mark, to the point that my boss previously has been, like, "You put too much emotion in your emails."
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ray - How can you put too much emotion in your emails?
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ben - I know. Iâm a loud person, I need exclamation marks. People need to know.
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ray - The same. Exactly.
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ben - I like that. Okay, so what else with dating apps then? Is that the biggest issue that you find is around the ability to read tone, or is there something deeper?
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ray - Remembering to reply.
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ben - No way?
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ray - Thatâs a big thing, âcos ADHD is a pain. So itâs that kind of thing where, like, Iâll see the message, I know I need to reply so Iâll put it on my, like, to do list, but my to do list has, like, a thousand things on it. So it just kind of gets lost and by the time I remember to reply to the message itâs been, like, a month.
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BEN - A month? I mean, Iâm definitely not waiting a month. I would give you a day⊠I might give you a couple of days to get it together, but a month? Good Lord. How can you sustain a conversation? Itâd be, like, ten words over the course of a year.
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ray - I canât.
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BEN - I see, so thatâs why itâs a drama.
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ray - No, Iâm not usually that bad. Iâm not usually that bad, I promise.
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BEN - So what has that meant for times when youâve been trying to build up relationships? Have you ever let someone slip away that you would have been, like, oh that could have been a great thing?
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ray - Many times. It makes it really difficult to maintain relationships. Also my other thing that I really struggle with is a lot of people donât realise itâs, like, a thing with ADHD, itâs object permanence.
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BEN - What does that mean?
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ray - So basically the simplest way I can explain it is if I get some fresh fruit and I put it in the fridge I know itâs in the fridge when Iâm in front of the fridge putting it inside, but then Iâll walk away from the fridge and forget itâs in there until, like, a weekâs gone past and I open the fridge and itâs, like, oh, thatâs off. I know that when I donât see something or someone that they still exist but thatâs a concept thatâs really hard for me to kind of remember.
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BEN - So in the context of you dating what does that mean?
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ray - In general I find that I donât really miss people the way I feel like I should. Itâs really difficult to explain to be honest, but itâs like I still love and care about people but if Iâm not around them for, like, an extended period of time itâs kind of like, yeah, like I love you, but⊠Iâm all right. Like, I donât feel that kind of missing feeling.
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ben - Think about it from the other personâs perspective then. So what were they feeling when you were like that?
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ray - I mean, itâs definitely not a fun thing at all, like, for anyone really. It just makes you come off as not empathetic when actually itâs the opposite of that, like, Iâm incredibly empathetic, Iâm just bad at showing it. One of the things that Iâve found actually is that I really enjoy just dating other people with learning disabilities, because you have that mutual understanding between each other and you can emphasise more easily with each otherâs experiences, even if you donât have the same learning disability.
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[[Music]
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BEN - Dating apps are a difficult thing for all of us to navigate, but Ray gave me such important insights on how these challenges are even more complicated when you have a learning disability. Now, the next person I spoke to is Scott, a 20 year old gay man who has faced his fair share of prejudice. Scott didnât want us to use his real name, as he was worried about the bullying he would face for talking so openly about being a gay man with learning disabilities.
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scott - Hello Ben, how are you?
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BEN - Iâm okay thank you, yeah. Itâs a weird time isnât it, but itâs nice to be speaking to you. Howâs your weekend been?
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scott - All right.
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BEN - Yeah? What did you get up to this weekend?
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scott - Nowt really.
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BEN - [Laughs] Well, such is lockdown isnât it? Iâm glad you said nothing. Iâd have been quite worried if youâd said you were at parties or on dates or whatever else. Outside of lockdown what would you ideally be doing?
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scott - Ideally Iâd be going out every night. Ideally, if I werenât in lockdown to be honest.
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ben - Okay. And what has it been like for you being gay with a learning disability?
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scott - Itâs been very tricky because obviously people donât really understand, like, who you are as a person, people just take advantage of you. Basically they just treat me like absolute poop because, like, Iâve basically been called so many names. Iâve been taken the mick out of so many times just because of the way I look and the way I behave towards people. Just basically all the nasty comments which can be hurtful at times, especially when you donât really need it.
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BEN - And what kind of things would people say to you?
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scott - Basically Iâve been called speccy four eyes. Iâve been called an alien, Iâve been calledâŠ
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BEN - An alien?
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scott - Yeah. Iâve been called ugly. Iâve been called so many names. Itâs just ridiculous, the names Iâve been called.
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BEN - When someone called you an alien how did that make you feel?
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scott - Well obviously it wasnât the best feeling. I was quite hurt for a few days. Itâs not really a name you want to be called.
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ben - Now, a little disclaimer. Iâve actually seen you because we did have a talk on Zoom, so Iâve seen your face andâŠ
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scott - That is correct.
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BEN - Yeah, that is⊠Thank you. You are handsome. Youâre cute.
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scott - Thank you.
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BEN - So when people say those kind of things do you actually, like, internalise it? Does it make you feel ugly, or are you kind of, like, well thatâs just them being a hater because of your disability or whatever?
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scott - Yeah, I would choose the second one because obviously theyâre just haters. Theyâre hating on me just because of the way I look, when they could be hating on so many other people. Itâs just like either take your stuff and go elsewhere or just say positive comments.
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BEN - Has that experience kind of underpinned your journey as a gay person with a learning disability?
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scott - Yes, because obviously being a gay person with a disability has its ups and downs. Some people like you for who you are as a person, whereas others are just complete jackasses who basically share a load of just stupid comments because of obviously the way you are.
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ben - Tell me a bit about your coming out experience. What was that like?
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scott - To be honest, most coming out experiences that Iâve heard from other people, have been extremely tough. But, to be honest, my coming out experience was actually quite easy because my parents obviously knew that I was gay to begin with, I donât know how when I didnât tell them but⊠[Laughs] So obviously when I told them they didnât really care, because they obviously knew or had an idea that I was gay. So it was fairly easy for me, my coming out journey.
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BEN - When you came out did you have a romantic partner? Did you find someone that you could love?
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scott - It took me a while obviously because itâs not easy, but after a while, yeah, I found someone, whoâs now my ex-boyfriend.
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ben - Ah⊠How have your previous partners been about your learning disability?
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scott - Itâs actually a bit of a difficult question because Iâve had, er⊠I donât know, Iâve had quite a few relationshipsâŠ
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BEN - Oh! So popular. I like it.
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scott - Some of them have been all right in the beginning, and they, like, loved me for who I am, this, that and the other, and then at the, like, end of the relationship they basically could just turn it all around and they say loads of just absolute garbage that isnât true, but then they make it out as in youâre in the wrong.
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BEN - One partner in particular made some very nasty comments towards Scott.
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scott - He was saying my disability was a joke. "You donât look right. You should look like a normal person. You donât deserve anyone. You should go and die."
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ben - My goodness, that is so, so horrific. Iâm really sorry that you went through that. So you recently joined Meet âNâ Match. Tell me all about it.
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scott - Basically Meet âNâ Match is, like, where you can basically talk to people like me, talk about stuff like the LGBT community and play games and stuff like that. Basically all the fun stuff.
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ben - And do you like it?
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scott - I would say I like it. I find it very, like, obviously interesting hearing other peopleâs stories and see people obviously on the same page as me. I find it quite interesting that other people have learning disabilities and are part of the LGBT community. So itâs obviously a relief to see that people are there with me as well.
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BEN - Have you met anyone yet using it?
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scott - No. Not yet, no. Iâve chatted to quite a lot of people on there.
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BEN - [Laughs]
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scott - Not on, like, a relationship level but I have chatted with them, yeah.
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BEN - Nice. Okay, I wonât ask too many questions, thatâs proper awkward. While, Meet âNâ Match has been great for Scott there arenât many organisations like it out there who are helping LGBT people with learning disabilities. This leaves a lot of people in this community feeling isolated, and thatâs one of the biggest issues. Scott and I were later joined on the line by Dr Claire Bates who explained to me how the social care sector needs to be doing more.
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claire - Iâm Claire Bates, and I founded the National Supported Loving Network. So the Supported Loving Network is a group of people who are dedicated to ensuring the rights of people with learning disabilities and, or autistic people around sexuality and relationships. Weâre a group of roughly a thousand people around the UK, joining together to try and make loving relationships a reality for everybody.
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BEN - A thousand people is a lot of people. That sounds like you are busy.
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claire - Yes, I am. It started off as something really tiny and it just really has captured a lot of peopleâs hearts I suppose. People got really passionate about it.
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BEN - How would you describe the situation for LGBT people with learning disabilities?
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claire - So Iâve worked in social care probably about 15 years, and it wasnât something we talked about a lot when I first started, but now itâs something that I think situations have improved a little bit, but itâs still an area of support thatâs completely lacking in social care. We donât talk about relationships and sexuality enough and we certainly donât talk about relationships with people who are LGBTQ very often in social care.
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BEN - Currently the CQC guidelines say that itâs not mandatory for care workers to talk to patients about their sexuality. Do you think that that needs to change?
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claire - They have guidance that says organisations should be supporting people around their sexuality and relationship needs, but currently itâs not in the key lines of enquiry which is what regulators use to inspect the quality of services. So you can get an outstanding saying that you provide outstanding support for somebody with a learning disability but it doesnât form part of the mandatory inspection to look at whether youâre providing support around sexuality and relationships, if that makes sense.
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BEN - And do you think that needs to change?
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claire - Oh yeah, absolutely. We know CQC are working hard on this, theyâre bringing out, you know, weâre working with them currently to review existing learning materials for staff and we know theyâve brought out guidance, but we absolutely believe it has to form part of inspections. There are lots of organisations out there that will do it because CQC have recommended it, but we know there are some that just wonât do it unless theyâre told they have to.
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BEN - So Scott, put down your drink [Laughs] and tell us about your support worker that wasnât supportive to you.
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scott - Basically he wasnât supportive. I told him about my story and this, that and the other, and he basically just, like, denied all help. I didnât get any of that, didnât get any support, I got basically nothing, all I got was a bunch of basically useless information. He just said, "Go and find all the information on your own," and basically said, "Iâm not going to give you anymore help," which is not really something that a person like that should really be doing.
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EMMA - So Ben, what Claireâs saying is that the Care Quality Commission who regulate social care donât judge social care services on the support that they provide around sex and relationships?
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BEN - It sounds like a small detail, but actually itâs pretty big, because if social care providers arenât judged on this then theyâre less likely to improve their training and how they help people with learning disabilities navigate sex and relationships. But a lot of people say that things are moving in the right direction, and this is something that does need to change because it would remove one of the big barriers for LGBT people with learning disabilities.
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Now, weâve searched far and wide for a female LGBT voice who could talk about their experiences of having a learning disability, but it wasnât easy. Claire has worked in this area for 15 years and she told me she hasnât come across many women in this space at all.
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claire - I work with quite a lot of dating agencies for people with a learning disability and they really struggle to get any women with a learning disability who are LGBT on their books. There are whole LGBT groups that just have men. Like, thereâs one in Oxford thatâs just purely men. And they set up a womenâs one for people with a learning disability. Two women came, they started a relationship, and then they didnât come back. [Laughs] Yeah, so we try to do⊠We sort of thought about womenâs only ones but it is really hard to find women. Itâs really hard just to find them, women with a learning disability, and thereâs such limited research on it, so theyâre really well hidden.
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So one of the other main issues that they find is learning materials for people with a learning disability, and even though thereâs been a lot of work to try and get more LGBT inclusive materials for people with a learning disability around sex ed, thereâs still an awful lot that more focuses on men, particularly stuff that sort of was developed in the â80s and â90s. It started off with combating HIV and AIDS, so there was more focus on men. Iâm not aware of a single resource thatâs specifically for women with a learning disability who are gay, lesbian, bi. There is much less representation of women.
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EMMA - What an interesting podcast. Thank you very much for bringing that to us, Ben. I mean, itâs something that weâve heard about over the years but itâs not something weâve properly discussed before I donât think. And I think, you know, apart from being LGBT and having a learning disability I think relationships for anyone with a learning disability can be tricky because of the people around them and the difficulties they have with a person with a learning disability being in a relationship as well. So itâs really, really interesting to get this take on it.
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ben - Yeah, I feel that. And to be honest, I mean, having done this job for a couple of years now I think thereâs a real need for people just to be nicer. When youâre using dating apps, if youâre a carer, just be nice. [Laughs] Just support people through what theyâre going through and hear them at the level that theyâre at with whatever theyâre needing. Itâs been a real eye opener for me to hear them talk about discrimination and the things that people have gone through negatively from wider society not understanding the issues that theyâre facing. And itâs really sad, really, really sad.
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EMMA - Ben, is there anything that really actually genuinely shocked you when you were doing this story about the situation for LGBT people with learning disabilities?
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BEN - I think the biggest thing is the fact that people struggle in silence, and that is very scary. The idea that if we hadnât picked up the phone to some of the people that we were speaking to they would have held onto these thoughts and these feelings and just let them fester and thatâs it. That thereâs no real outlet for them and itâs quite sad to think that, especially in these times when weâre all so isolated and so alone, that people still can face this level of prejudice from the very tools that are there, supposedly to help them communicate better and more effectively and to make friends and make dates and whatever else. So yeah, itâs been quite surprising just how lonely some people are, and the fact that thereâs not really much out there to help them.
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[[Music]
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EMMA - Thanks again to Ben Hunte for joining us on the Ouch podcast. Now, if you want to get in touch with us our email is ouch, O-U-C-H, @bbc.co.uk. And we are on Facebook and Twitter, just search for ±«Óătv Ouch. You can find many, many, many more episodes of this podcast on the ±«Óătv Sounds app.
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Access All: Disability News and Mental Health
Weekly podcast about mental health, wellbeing and disabled people.