What is auti-gender?
We ask if autistic people are more gender fluid
Blogger Neurodivergent Rebel explores why sex and gender are big topics in the autistic community, and talks about the two metaphorical closets they had to ācome outā of.
Listener Madge has advice for young autistic people starting their gender journey.
And ... it's the third lockdown everyone. Jamie hopes never to need a Covid test as "sticking a long thing in his nose" might stop him speaking for weeks. Robyn, who has been tested twice, helps out with a big dose of reassurance and explains how she handles the unpleasant feelings.
With Robyn Stewart and Jamie Knight. Produced by Emma Tracey.
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Transcript
This is a full transcript of 1800 Seconds on Autism: What is auti-gender?, as first broadcast on 28th January 2021. Presented by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight.
[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]
JAMIE - Iām dressed as Tigger today and itās the microphone bouncing off of the buttons on my onesie.
[Music]
CHRISTA - When I was a little kid I would sleep under the cushions, like, in the couch, to have that pressure on me and just pile all the toys on top or just pile anything on. It just feels so good.
[Music]
MADGE - I love the concept of auti-gender, I think thatās brilliant, ācos I do feel kind of in between the genders.
[Music]
ROBYN - Positive flapping over here.
[Music]
JAMIE - Itās the podcast that makes you think about how you think. Iām Jamie Knight.
ROBYN - And Iām Robyn Steward. Weāre half way through series three, can you believe it? Well, I can because Iāve been doing it. Anyway, weāre still recording from home with the support of our support animals, humans, microphones, chocolates, and Emma, our producer.
EMMA - Hello.
ROBYN - And of course, your emails. Please keep them coming, to stim@bbc.co.uk.
JAMIE - The UK is, once again, in a lockdown. In this episode weāll be discussing COVID-19 testing, and weāre also going to talk to autistic YouTuber, Neurodivergent Rebel, whoāll be explaining what auti-gender is. Stay tuned.
ROBYN - How are you coping in this third lockdown, Jamie?
JAMIE - Erā¦ So far, so okay I guess? We had our first instance of somebody very close to us needing a test because they thought they were infectious, and frustratingly, or alarmingly, it was one of the support people. So, because theyād been here a couple of days before they went for their test and then they were feeling ill we had to isolate suddenly, as if somebody had returned a positive test. In the end the test ended up being negative, but it was definitely a couple of days where I couldnāt really make any plans about my life and that turned out to be very poor for my mental health, letās put it that way.
EMMA - Thereās a really strange noise. Is anybody else hearing that, itās like aā¦
ROBYN - Yeah, clicking.
JAMIE - That one? [Clicking]
ROBYN - Oh!
JAMIE - Thatās a button on myā¦ Iām dressed as Tigger today.
ROBYN - Stop pressing it please!
JAMIE - Sorry. Iām dressed as Tigger today and itās the microphone bouncing off of the buttons on my onesie.
EMMA - I think that might be the best excuse Iāve ever heard.
ROBYN - You mentioned your mental health, Jamie. If youāre comfortable would you tell us about it?
JAMIE - Sure. Iām talking to friends. I didnāt have my normal routine for about four weeks, five weeks, and one of the ways that that affects me is I have less energy, so Iāve got basically nothing done, ācos anything I touch I tend to break because Iām really tired all the time. So I havenāt built bikes, I havenāt done any coding or anything, ācos I just make so many mistakes. And that, plus being always tired, tends to let the depression build up a little bit.
And the way it tends to affect me the most is when I wake up in the morning I find it incredibly hard to be positive. And it takes, you know, 45 minutes to an hour for that positivity to kick in. And on the two days or the day and a half where we were waiting for the COVID test that depression didnāt clear, in fact it got worse as the day went on, which wasnāt the response I was expecting and was a little bit alarming.
I was already quite low when we found out it was negative, but then also the speed at which it sprung back the very next day, like yesterday when we went to go for a bike ride that had been cancelled three times, postponed twice, and we finally made it out to this soggy, wet, damp forest. I was the wettest, dampest thing in the forest with the biggest smile. It was just brilliant, because it was finally getting outside, finally having a sense that I had some sort of control over what I did with my life.
ROBYN - What is it that concerns you about getting a test?
JAMIE - Iāll be consenting to it, obviously, but it is quite a violation of, like, sensory stuff and bodily autonomy, so to speak. The worry is that if we go for the test itās probably going to knock out my speech. Even going to the dentist tends to affect my speech for a couple of days, or I have much more difficulty communicating. Combine difficulty communicating with a generally depressive mood and a lack of energy and it could take literally weeks to recover. If everybody around me is positive then I need to isolate regardless because Iām in a household bubble with someone whoās positive. So actually doing the test doesnāt benefit us in any way, the only benefit I guess is the government get an extra one digit on their number, but the numbers are in the tens of thousands so thatās not a significant thing anyway. So itās kind of weighing up the personal ramifications versus the benefit. Does that make sense?
ROBYN - Yeah, but what about if you did the test at home?
JAMIE - Itās the nature of the test thatās the problem. Sticking long things into my body. The likelihood that I will be able to put something long in my nose without it horrifically affecting my speech is very low and we donāt want to find out whether that means that Iām fine and Iām verbal an hour later, or whether it means that I donāt have any speech for three weeks. Itās not worth us finding out. Youāve mentioned before that youāve had multiple tests. Could you, like, tell us about those and kind of why they happened?
ROBYN - Yeah, so I went to hospital with probably COVID in April but I wasnāt able to get a test then. Then I had what I now know to be long COVID but I thought was a relapse in June, so I had one then, and then I had a bit of a temperature in September and it was around the time I was supposed to have a blood test so I had one then. So Iāve had two.
JAMIE - That makes a lot of sense.
ROBYN - Oh, and then I had a blood test for the antibodies.
JAMIE - Okay. How have you found the tests? Have they always gone smoothly? How do you find the sensory side of it?
ROBYN - Thatās a good question. I donāt really like it, and I donāt think Iām very good at it, but it doesnāt last for very long. The biggest thing is, I wish Iād understood that the gagging thing is going to be really unpleasant and you just have to think about something else while you do that for a few seconds.
JAMIE - Hearing from another autistic person who has had that experience and can say, āItās unpleasant but Iāve done it multiple times,ā is really reassuring, so thanks for telling us about that.
ROBYN - Youāre welcome. Iāve talked to my doctor about that because, like, as a woman I have to have a cervical smear every three years, and thatās really unpleasant. Like, that is a lot worse than the COVID test, and I have to do it to make sure I donāt have cancer and I hate it. When I have something like that coming up the doctor gives me medication and it helps me relax. And I find that that sorts it out because it dampens down my responses and so Iām sort of less bothered.
JAMIE - The sensory thing seems to be not related to anxiety or stress, it just seems to be like when thereās a big sensory thing, whichever part of my brain that is normally a little bit fragile for language just gets blown away and takes time to come back.
ROBYN - I think it probably was COVID, Iāve never had anything like that before. And I definitely have all the, you know, a lot of the common long COVID symptoms like dizziness, the fatigue, oxygen saturation levels that bounce up and down quite a lot. Now that kind of seems fairly stable now, but for ages it was like that and sometimes I would just have to stop work because Iād be dizzy and need to take time off. So I think itās very likely that I had COVID and it certainly fits withā¦
JAMIE - I think thatās the first time weāve discussed that, like, on the recording, and Iām really sorry to hear that and hopefully we can help support you with that. Itās kind of terrifying.
[Jingle] Send any questions or thoughts to stim@bbc.co.uk
JAMIE - Something that a lot of people have asked us about relates to gender identity in autism, so when we saw a recent YouTube video from the blogger known as Neurodivergent Rebel explaining something called auti-gender, more on that in a second, we asked them to join us for a chat.
ROBYN - Neurodivergent Rebel is also known as Christa Holmans. Have I pronounced that right?
CHRISTA - Yes.
ROBYN - An autistic self-advocate from Texas. Hi Christa, thanks for joining us on the podcast. Apparently, Iām immediately distracted by the bio on your blog which says you live in an RV. [Laughter] Iām not at all distracted by that, but itās an interesting fact. RV stands for recreational vehicle.
JAMIE - Camper van in the UK.
ROBYN - And Iām sure that Jamie in particular would love to know about it, because Jamie likes things with wheels.
JAMIE - I have many, many, many thoughts about building little self-contained small living spaces, inspired by battleships and submarines and stuff like that, but I should probably park that special interest for another day and talk to you about it another time. But yeah, small living, portable RV stuff, thatās very interesting to me.
CHRISTA - I love it. Living the dream.
JAMIE - Yeah, it sounds it. Do you move around in the RV or do you kind of stay mostly in one place?
CHRISTA - We moved around a lot more before COVID and everything else of course, and now we donāt really travel very much because, you know, thereās a peak over here where itās getting kind of bad, so weāre trying to stay in one place. But itās a good life for social distancing, weāve been social distancing long before COVID was a thing because it was just kind of the lifestyle. Weād go park in the middle of the woods or somewhere beautiful and be away from people and in nature, which is my happy place.
JAMIE - You used the phrase, āweā there, so is there somebody else with you in the RV or is it a cat?
CHRISTA - Yeah. Well thereās four dogs and then my partner lives with me as well.
JAMIE - Wow.
CHRISTA - Itās a full house. Itās a bus, itās a forty foot long bus, itās about the size of a city bus. Itās a large one. Weād go smaller if we didnāt have four dogs, but they needed room to be able to kind of run around and play. So maybe someday weāll do a van.
ROBYN - Is it an old school bus?
CHRISTA - No, I wish, that would be cool. No, we bought an older luxury coach and it needs a lot of work, but thatās why we bought it.
JAMIE - How does that intersect with being autistic and gender?
CHRISTA - Oh, yeah.
JAMIE - Is there a story there?
CHRISTA - Really it relates to living a more affordable lifestyle and living minimally. I think if anything, as an autistic person, a lot of us are either underemployed or unemployed or maybe for whatever reason we canāt physically handle a forty hour work week, or sometimes people expect you to work 50, 60 hours a week, and some of us canāt handle that anymore, and I could handle it a lot better when I was younger than I can now. But it allows us to live with a lot less.
We had a house at one point and people call their houses a money pit, right? Thereās always something in the house, and so now we donāt have a house payment because we have the bus. And weāve got a bus that always needs work but itās also, as a neurodivergent person, a lot easier to keep track of. I donāt have as many things to keep track of. My space is much smaller, so when I do need to clean up I can clean it up by myself fairly quickly from a little 40 foot nose to tail area. I just swipe front to back, it keeps it really simple. So my life has been simplified.
JAMIE - Our listeners will want to know, [whispers] and I want to know too, what make and model of bus do you have?
CHRISTA - Yeah, so itās a 2004 Country Coach, Allure I think? I hope thatās correct, off the top of my head. We like our bus.
JAMIE - Well, I know what Iām googling at the end of this recording. So moving on to the actual script. You started up Ask Autistics which is a hashtag that invites questions about autism from people who arenāt autistic. Could you tell us a little bit about the questions that people have been asking? Is there anything thatās been surprising? Anything thatās made you laugh or anything thatās made you cry?
CHRISTA - You know, some of my favourite things are when you see a good question, regardless of what the question is, and people start talking and theyāre like, āOh my gosh, I thought I was the only one,ā and they realise how much they have in common on a lot of the different things. Or sometimes they are the only one and itās like everyone else has one experience and theyāre going, āOh, thatās not what itās like for me, thatās somewhere Iām different.ā Itās fun. Like I think recently we had a conversation and we were talking about, you know, thereās a myth that autistic people arenāt sexual beings, and itās like, oh thatās not true, you know, we have sex, thatās where a lot of autistic kids come from, you know. [laughs] So itās kind of fun to see these conversations happening because weāre humans like everybody else, you know.
JAMIE - The infantilisingā¦ Yes.
CHRISTA - Yeah, itās gross, itās creepy.
JAMIE - Iām never verbal around the social worker. I have periods of my life where Iāve gone years with no speech where nobody in my life knows Iām verbal, so they tend to often assume very infantilising things. So when Iām with someone like a social worker or Iām really stressed so Iām using assisted technology to communicate, Iām communicating through my laptop, and we were doing a care review via AAC and it came onto sex, in the forms like sex and relationships. And she went, āOh, we can skip this,ā and I started typing away and her face fell through the floor, ācos she was obviously expecting me to be making safeguard reviews and all sorts of stuff. And then when I finally showed it to her it was something along the lines of I enjoy that very much and Iām not willing to tell you about it. [laughter] It was great, brilliant.
But anyway. Ask Autistics, I follow that as well, and Iād encourage anybody listening, itās a useful place to see different conversations. You were saying about how people sometimes have their own experience or the exact opposite. I find it interesting how often in the autistic community the exact same thing, like a sensory response, can be equally strong in both directions.
CHRISTA - Oh, yeah.
JAMIE - So I know some people who cannot tolerate heavy blankets in the slightest, their blankets have to be as light as possible because they hate the feeling of pressure, and then I know other people like myself where, to be honest, if a dump truck just reversed over me at bedtime Iād be pretty happy.
CHRISTA - Oh, yeah.
JAMIE - Iād go out very blissfully.
EMMA - Christa, that was an interesting reaction to Jamie saying heād be quite happy if a dump truck rolled over him so that he could go to sleep. Why have you had that reaction?
CHRISTA - Oh my gosh. I love my, like, weighted blanket and my heavy blankets. When I was a little kid I would sleep under the couch cushions, like in the couch, to have that pressure on me and just pile all the toys on top, or just pile anything on. It just feels so good.
JAMIE - Itās just so nice to be squished. But one of the downsides, I have like an inflatable squish jacketā¦
CHRISTA - Oh! Iām going to google that.
JAMIE - Wonderful things. Although if you run it at the absolute highest pressure, as tight as it will go, and youāre wearing one thatās one size too small it will leave bruises. Wonderful, wonderful bruises. But it will leave bruises so, you know, warning.
EMMA - I would hate that. I would hate that, it sounds awful.
JAMIE - Itās the sort of thing where as you breathe in you can suddenly feel all of your body as all of the pressure builds up. Itās great. But donāt breathe in too far, otherwise, you know, it hurts a lot.
EMMA - What do you mean, you can feel all of your body?
JAMIE - I donāt know, you kind of breathe in and you know where your edge is. So I have this thing where I kind of walk around feeling like a big floaty cloud of Jamie and I then bump into things, because oh, Iāve got a bit of body over there, I didnāt know that, whatās it doing over there, but when Iām kind of all squished together or Iām wearingā¦ Itās one of the reasons I like my mountain bike clothing. Iāve just realised, I could wear my mountain bike clothing when Iām not mountain biking. How come thatās never occurred to me before? Anyway. Iāve got this, like, riding top thatās really tight and when I put it on itās like suddenly I have arms. And then when I take it off again I go back to being the amorphous floaty cloud of Jamie.
ROBYN - Moving on to why we invited you onto the podcast, gender and identity.Ā I was watching your video, Auti-gender, and I found it really interesting. I think you articulated something that possibly a lot of autistic people would identify with, and I just wondered if you could tell us what the term auti-gender means and why itās important to you?
CHRISTA - Yeah, so auti-gender is understood with the context of when youāre autistic and that greatly impacting how you experience gender. And so I want to be really clear with this that itās not autism as a gender, but itās rather the fact that you canāt separate being autistic from who you are and how you experience the world, and gender is another part of that and some of us feel like we canāt really unlink that, that being autistic heavily influences our experience of gender. And, you know, not every autistic person may experience this, but a lot of autistic people Iāve found do andā¦
JAMIE - If there is auti-gender does that imply NT gender and ADHD gender? Or could it be described as a combination of neurotype and your experience with gender, but actually the actual neurotype isnāt important, itās recognising that the two are interlinked thatās the important bit?
CHRISTA - Thereās the term neurogender which is a whole other term, and neuroqueer, where itās saying being neurodivergent influences your experience of gender. And I think thatās a wider umbrella and auti-genderās kind of just a more specific piece of that.
JAMIE - That makes a lot of sense.
CHRISTA - Because I think being neurodivergent is definitely going to impact our experience of gender, because a lot of us, with autistic people weāre literally defined by the way we kind of donāt fit as neatly into societyās little checkboxes. And so, like, we know gender is a social construct, so itās just another one of those areas in which many autistic people donāt necessarily fit.
JAMIE - It makes sense. I donāt think Iāve talked about this on the podcast before, awooga, awooga, I generally donāt like gendered clothing. I donāt understand why boys shouldnāt wear skirts, and I own skirts. I donāt necessarily wear them outside, because socially complicated, but as a kid I was like, well why couldnāt I wear a skirt to school? It looks really comfy, really breezy.
CHRISTA - Weāve had people, like you said, who donāt even think of these issues, sexuality and gender and all these things, because weāre infantilised all the time and so there isnāt a lot of conversation happening about this because of that.
JAMIE - When I first came out as gay and started having a boyfriend, I was at college at the time, and college in the UK is post 16 education, so thatās 16 or 17, and essentially all of the grownups to me went, āOh, thatās brilliant, Jamie, whoās the lucky person?ā kind of pat on the back, pat on the back. And then, like, āWeāve just got to pop out for a moment,ā and they went and found my boyfriend, Jimmy and were like, āAre you serious with Jamie? What is this? Is this a con?ā you know, and he basically got it from every single adult in his life going, āAre you really dating an autistic person? You know, there must be an ulterior motive to this.ā And he was like, āNo, I just like hanging out with him.ā They were like, āHmm, suspicious.ā So that infantilising can beā¦ Itās well meant but can be quite corrosive.
CHRISTA - Hmm-hmm.
ROBYN - So, Christa, can you tell me about how you got interested in gender and also maybe a bit about how the way you thought about your own gender evolved?
CHRISTA - Yeah. Well, I think growing up I didnāt really know there were other options, but I felt like a lot of, quote, gender, was annoying to me. I was like, why is it girls canāt do this? Why is it boys canāt do this? You know, all of it just really frustrated me. I just never felt like I was a little girl, and I never felt like I was a boy either. And finally being able to fully embrace that as an adult has let me have freedom, because Iāve never liked living in closets and I donāt think itās healthy to do so. And Iām someone who values the truth and I prefer honesty, and being untrue to myself really is something that I find personally soul crushing. And I came out of the closet the first time in middle school when I took my first girlfriend to a school dance and years later when I was diagnosed autistic I started coming out of another closet, the autism closet, and surprisingly that was actually quite similar to coming out.
JAMIE - Can I make a joke that I made on stage once that got me both complaints and a lot of laughter, but it makes me giggle?
CHRISTA - Please.
JAMIE - Which is, I made a joke that, you know, coming out of the autism closet was quite difficult, partly because the rest of the world was really messy and the inside of the autism closet is incredibly tidy.
ROBYN - I wanted to make a joke about closets. I wanted to say that well, I think Jamie might quite like being in a physical closet.
JAMIE - I used to have an office inside a cupboard.
ROBYN - Yeah. Which is like the UKās name for a closet.
JAMIE - As I said, RV living, very appealing, very appealing. The company I rented my cupboard from, my office cupboard went bust, so I no longer have an office cupboard. So weāve mentioned before the various types of closets in our life, and you mentioned that coming out of the autism closet was another experience. Could you tell us about that please?
CHRISTA - Yeah. So, you know, why I say it was really similar to coming out of other closets would be that the experience when youāre telling people one you have to do it over and over and over again, you never stop coming out of the closet. And some people are going to get it, some people wonāt, youāre going to learn pretty quickly who you can talk to safely and who youāre going to have to hide around. And there is also the painfully familiar experience of people who are just leaving your life who wonāt be able to accept the new information and kind of become, unfortunately, a hinderance on your continued personal growth. And thatās something Iāve experienced with every closet Iāve come out of and, you know, itās sometimes painful but itās also at the same time, you know, you have this freedom to really be your most authentic and true self.
JAMIE - One of the threads that we pick up quite often is the intersection of autonomy identity, and as I get older I have more autonomy and control over my life, therefore Iām in a better position to be less affected if people choose to leave my life because of being autistic or gay or whatever. Does that make sense, that kind of as you get older the impact of losing a single person gets lessened?
CHRISTA -Ā Oh yeah. Just think if youāre a child and youāre in the custody of your parents and your parents arenāt accepting of you youāre trapped with them, pretty much.
JAMIE - Yeah. You mentioned the considering of the agenda became more apparent after your autism diagnosis, and Iām curious about how that came about, but Iām also curious about where you ended up in that process and kind of what the outcomes were.
CHRISTA - Yeah, and so I guess Iād say it became too hard to deny after my diagnosis, so for me I was assigned female at birth and thatās what itās felt like, itās like an assignment that was given to me that I really had no say in. And I went along with this for a lot of years, performing how I thought I was expected to behave, and I would even present myself in this really hyper, feminine, over the top way because, you know, thatās what I thought I needed to do to be a girl; I had to wear the makeup, the skirts, the heels, all the things. And itās not even really a healthy representation of what it means to be a woman, because looks arenāt what makes the woman either. But it was just easier for me to present outwardly in a very stereotypical female presentation, even if on some days it felt like an elaborate costume.
And with autistic people, some of us, we may mask and hide our true selves, and I put on that feminine costume as part of my mask as an autistic person. I was playing a role and trying to blend in, just so I could be treated better by people in the world. And, you know, this elaborate mask was part of me behaving in a way that was, quote, socially acceptable, and that was, you know, behaving in an appropriate, quote, appropriate gender roles. And since unmasking as an autistic person over the past four years that piece of my mask has also begun to fall away as I get to know myself all over again and evaluate how I really feel and how I see myself, versus how I think I should act for societyās benefit instead of my own benefit.
And, you know, I am much happier in life when I donāt mask and I go along with how I feel instead of just conforming to societyās norms and doing what I think society expects me to do. And for a lot of years I didnāt put a name to my feelings about my gender, I was just like, Iām a me. And then I started to kind of, like, during Corona things are different and so I had more time on my hands and I found myself scrolling through TikTok which is an addicting time suck, and I found other LGBTQIA people on TikTok and started following those, and was like, oh my gosh, there are names for exactly what I experience. And so then I came out and said, okay, āWell Iām nonbinary, if we want to be specific, I identify as gender fluid and there it is, thatās it.ā And I put it out there because I finally had words for it.
[Jingle: 1800 Seconds on Autism. With Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight]
ROBYN - Letās also talk to Madge Woollard whoās with us. Hi, Madge.
MADGE - Hello, lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
ROBYN - Thank you very much for coming. Madge identifies as nonbinary but uses she/her pronouns, and sheās a piano teacher and sheās been married to her wife, Jo, for 20 years, and she got her autism diagnosis when she was 44. The reason I wanted to bring Madge into the conversation was because I know that Madge identifies as nonbinary but uses she/her pronouns, and Christa identifies as nonbinary but uses they/them pronouns. And I think that thatās really interesting and also sort of demonstrates when youāve met one autistic person youāve met one autistic person. And so too maybe when youāve met one nonbinary person youāve met one nonbinary person. And Madge has been listening to what Christaās been saying and I wanted to ask Madge if any of those things sort of resonate with you? If theyāre similar to you or if theyāre different, and how theyāre different?
MADGE - Oh yeah, definitely. I love the concept of auti-gender, I think thatās brilliant, ācos I do feel kind of in between the genders. But yeah, as Robyn said, I use she/her pronouns, just for convenience really and because I am happy in my female body, I donāt want to change anything about my body or have any male aspects, any physical aspects that is. So does that answer your question, Robyn?
ROBYN - Yeah.
CHRISTA - I probably would be comfortable using all of the pronouns, depending on the day. Honestly, thatās why I say Iām gender fluid because my feelings about my gender kind of fluctuate. But, you know, if Iām having a day where Iām feeling a little bit more towards the more feminine quadrant I might not mind someone using she/her pronouns with me. But the fact that you donāt know how Iām feeling that day, if people ask I just say them, itās just easier because then youāre not making those assumptions about me.
I donāt know why, itās just always made me a little bit uncomfortable, people making assumptions about my gender. And I donāt know, thatās not something all nonbinary people feel, but itās something I do. Iāve heard a couple of other nonbinary people say they feel that too.
MADGE - Well, I think that as long as youāre talking respectfully to a person and I would hope that people wouldnāt mind too much if they stumble over the pronouns, but because I use she/her pronouns and I appear quite feminine itās not been a problem for me. But I definitely think we should all respect each otherās pronouns, even if it does make some quite clumsy sentences, ācos they/them is quite a new thing and so everybodyās getting used to it. So it is going to take some time.
CHRISTA - Although maybe the word nonbinary is a new thing, having genders that fall outside of the gender binary is not a new concept. Indigenous peoples all over the world have represented and had more than just two genders. Itās kind of actually a new colonial concept thatās kind of been brought in more recently where weāve had kind of the erasure of the genders that fall outside of the standard male female binary, and now more people are starting to talk about this. Itās a new conversation but itās actually not even a new thing or a new concept, people have been nonbinary for a lot of years, we just now have a word to describe it. Like now itās like, oh auti-gender, this is a new word, but itās probably autistic people throughout the centuries have had this experience itās just now thereās a word for it.
ROBYN - That is such a good point about indigenous people. So this is a question to Christa and Madge, if I could ask. Do you think there are more autistic people when compared to non autistic people that identify across the gender spectrum rather than identifying as a binary gender? And if you do, why do you think that is?
CHRISTA - I definitely think thereās more, at least people who are autistic, who identify as LGBTQIA+, and I say that because I did a Twitter poll and we had 3,670 autistic people vote, and my question was really simple: Do you consider yourself to be part of the LGBTQIA+? And the percentages were 75.3% yes and 24.7% no. And Iāll disclaimer this, because this is a Twitter poll, itās not a scientific poll, but itās enough to be interesting. And I would say I think a lot of this goes back to gender being one of those social constructs that, you know, weāre willing to question, we look at it under a magnifying glass and go, āOh, some of thatās new things for me.ā And weāre willing to do that, whereas I think some neurotypical people might be more likely to go along with what theyāre supposed to do and weāre a little bit more rebellious by nature, some of us.
MADGE - And can I just add to that, that speaking for myself I grew up knowing intrinsically that I was different, I didnāt know that I was autistic at the time, but I think from there there wasnāt such a big jump to then coming out as LGBT, because I already knew I was different, if that makes sense?
JAMIE - While we have Madge and Christa on the line it feels like a wonderful opportunity to ask for their advice and their input. So, to both of you, what would you say to other autistic people who are figuring out who they are, or who theyāre attracted to, or whether they even care about this at all?
MADGE - Well can I say, just connect to likeminded people online. Thereās loads of stuff out there, and look on websites, but bona fide ones. For instance, Stonewall has a lot of links that you can follow. Iād say surround yourself with people who support you in finding yourself and donāt say things like, āOh, youāre autistic, you canāt know your gender and your sexuality.ā Or, āItās just a phase,ā or, āYouāve got it wrong,ā you donāt want those sort of people in your life. So if possible surround yourself with positive people. Yeah, and just donāt limit yourself. So gender and sexuality can be fluid throughout your life, donāt feel you have to put yourself in any kind of box and itās fine to change. So yeah, thatās my advice.
JAMIE - Thank you. One of the things that I have come across very often is actually to do with autistic people and dating. I know that a lot of autistic people really struggle with one off dating websites, and at least in my experience, of the autistic people I know the ones who have the strongest relationships, they grew very slowly over time. They may have started as colleagues or friends, and then over, sometimes literally years, it became a boyfriend and girlfriend situation, or similar. What do you both think?
MADGE - Well, I have to say, I actually met my wife through, it was called āThe Pink Paperā, it was 20 years ago, before we really had dating apps and stuff like that, but I put an advert in āThe Pink Paperā and she replied and thatās how we met. So you canāt really say that autistic people donāt meet that way.
JAMIE - Well, thatās why I kind of prefixed it with the majority of people that I talk to. I think, Iām just doing some stats, of the nine people Iāve asked youāre the first person whoās found somebody that way. So itās just fascinating to me.
MADGE - I just feel it was luck. I mean, I had tried dating things before and never been lucky, so I do feel thereās a lot of luck in it too.
ROBYN - Thanks so much to Christa and Madge, itās been an absolute pleasure to speak to both of you, and thank you very much for listening to 1800 Seconds as well, and for writing to us. And also to the audience, to those of you listening, if any of you have any different thoughts or feelings please donāt feel like weāre trying to tell everybody how they should think and feel because everyone is different. But please do email us, stim, thatās S-T-I-M, stim@bbc.co.uk.
JAMIE - Thank you, itās been lovely to have you on.
CHRISTA - Thanks guys.
MADGE - Well thank you very much for having me, itās been a pleasure.
ROBYN - Positive flapping over here.
MADGE - Yeah.
CHRISTA - Thanks guys, itās been so much fun.
ROBYN - Another episode of 1800 Seconds on Autism is drifting towards its end, although I donāt know it could be drifting because itās a podcast. I guess itās drifting past your ears anyway. Before we go weād like to encourage you to email us at stim@bbc.co.uk. Stim is spelt, S-T-I-M. We would like to know if youāve got any thoughts about whatās been discussed in this podcast and, importantly, what topics would you like to be covered in future podcasts.
JAMIE - If this is the first time youāve listened you might want to know that there are over 20 more episodes available on ±«Óćtv Sounds and you can listen to them right now. You can subscribe to the podcast there too so that we appear on your device every time we publish a new show.
ROBYN - Weād love for more people to know about 1800 Seconds on Autism, so tell your friends, tell your family, and share us around on social media. It helps others who might like us find us. Thanks for listening, goodbye.
JAMIE - Goodbye.
EMMA - Bye.
[Jingle: That was 1800 Seconds on Autism]
Podcast
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1800 Seconds on Autism
The podcast that makes you think about how you think.