'I hope they'll make masks with cut-outs for lips'
The challenge of lip-reading during coronavirus
Award-winning screenwriter Charlie Swinbourne has plenty to keep him busy during lockdown as he develops storylines for deaf characters with EastEnders and Casualty.
He reveals what it's like to be deaf at a time when everyone is social-distancing and where mouths are covered by masks, making lip-reading impossible.
The writer and journalist also talks about the hashtag #WhereIsTheInterpreter which raised awareness of the fact sign language interpreters do not appear at the daily British government briefings. The hashtag has now morphed into a crowdfunding project to take the government to court using equality laws but Number 10 says it provides signers via the ±«Óătv News Channel.
Beyond politics we head to soap-land to get the scoop on Charlie's TV projects and, if you're thinking of giving writing a try, he has some top tips to get you started and keep you going.
Presented by Simon Minty and Beth Rose.
Subscribe on ±«Óătv Sounds or say âAsk the ±«Óătv for Ouchâ to your smart speaker.
Transcript: 'I hope they'll make masks with cut-outs for lips'
Presented by Simon Minty and Beth Rose
Ìę
simon -
Hello, and welcome to Cabin Fever. If ever there was a time we felt like we were living through a film now is it. And I bet youâre watching even more TV than ever before. This week weâve got quite a treat for you in the form of an award winning screen writer whoâs already shaping the likes of âEastEndersâ and Bethâs favourite, âCasualtyâ. Iâm Simon Minty. I have hearing loss but Iâm not proper deaf, and also Iâm short; I have a form of dwarfism.
beth -
Hi, Iâm Beth Rose. Iâm non disabled, Iâm the token on this podcast, and Iâm recording this in my living room in West London. Also, happy birthday, Mr Minty.
SIMON -
Thank you very much. I am here in the same place I was on my birthday four days ago, in a little office area in front of the computer screen. I did more quizzes on my birthday. Our guest today is Charlie Swinbourne. Weâre a bit low on staff and budget, could you introduce yourself? That would be really helpful.
CHARLIE -
Hi, Iâm Charlie Swinbourne and Iâm a screenwriter, director and a journalist. Iâm the editor of âLimping Chickenâ and Iâm all the way up in Yorkshire in a village with lots of countryside around. And itâs very nice to speak to you.
BETH -
That sounds really nice, but before we get any further why is the blog called the âLimping Chickenâ?
CHARLIE -
Itâs a really long story, and I get asked that question so often that I really wish eight years ago Iâd chosen a different name for it. It was to do with a ±«Óătv Three documentary about a deaf girl who was going to her first day at university and her notetaker left halfway through her first lecture because her chicken had a bad leg. Deaf people all over social media, they put loads of memes out, and at the same time I was about to start this website and I wanted to give it a name that wasnât too dry, I wanted to give it a memorable name. But of course now Iâve got to live with the consequences of my decision.
BETH -
You know what, itâs a bit like ±«Óătv Ouch, itâs a bit Marmite. People are always like, why is it called that?
CHARLIE -
Yeah, itâs memorable, and I think people do sort of like the name.
SIMON -
I think that bit of not having deafness in the title, I can see that, because you might get the casual reader. A bit more detail. So fans of access detail, weâre using a video link to speak with Charlie today because Charlie uses sign language which I canât do but he will do lip reading as well. What has self-isolation been like for you?
CHARLIE -
One thing Iâve noticed is that if Iâm walking around the village with my dog then itâs a bit harder to hear the people that do talk to you because occasionally people will say hello and just that two meters distance Iâm really struggling to pick up sort of anything. You know, this is the deaf life, you sort of guess what people have said, but I do think overall from a deaf perspective thereâs something interesting about the fact that we are often socially distanced. And things like right now people canât go to the cinema, they canât go to the theatre, so in a strange way hearing people that I know, Iâve sometimes got the sense that theyâre understanding a bit of maybe what the deaf or disabled experience is like.
BETH -
How is the two meter rule and facemasks impacting? Because if you lip read, I mean that must just really cut everything out.
CHARLIE -
Absolutely. I do use the hearing that Iâve got. Because Iâm partially deaf I wear hearing aids, but I certainly depend on lip reading, and thatâs a worry that I have if I had to go into intensive care, or even to go to the hospital for any reason and people were wearing masks. And there has been talk of clear masks. People have been developing masks that you could still see the lips through, which I really hope theyâre still to come about, but itâs a really big issue.
simon -
When I first saw those clear masks I didnât look properly and I thought someone had just cut out that bit. And then I thought well whatâs the point of that? I hadnât realised there was clear plastic around the lips. I love this. Are there new sign language terms for different bits of Covid? Have some been developed?
CHARLIE -
Absolutely, yeah. The sign for Coronavirus, it kind of looks a bit spiky. Your fingers are spread out and they go round your other hand. Often many signs are quite descriptive, and itâs amazing how you find this new sign that youâve never seen before and suddenly youâre seeing that sign all the time.
BETH -
With something like a global pandemic does the sign become international? So rather than having British Sign Language, American Sign Language, does it just develop on Facebook or something so everyone is using the same sign?
CHARLIE -
I think itâs quite likely that other countries are using the same sign, because often that does happen.
SIMON -
On a more general level, Charlie, how is the deaf community getting on? What are rumblings and how is lockdown affecting them?
CHARLIE -
I think itâs a bit like the wider world really where some people are enjoying aspects of lockdown, while also coping with the negative side of it. I know people who feel like theyâre busier socially than theyâve ever been, and because deaf people are obviously spread out throughout the country and all of a sudden everybodyâs congregating on Zoom - Iâve been to a surprise birthday party on Zoom - and you see all these familiar faces that youâve known for years but youâve never really had 20 people on a Zoom conversation.
And the funny bit is when youâre signing with people on it and itâs in gallery view, so youâve just got all the boxes on the screen and people try and talk to you but youâre not sure if they are trying to talk to you because theyâre kind of waving at you and multiple boxes are having one conversation but then suddenly itâll widen out into a group thing where maybe one personâs mainly talking and everyoneâs listening to them. I guess on a normal Zoom chat thereâd be one person speaking at any one time but there is that possibility when youâre signing of having these multiple conversations.
simon -
And also a lot of the video chats, whoever is speaking is highlighted to show but if thereâs no noise then no oneâs specifically highlighted.
CHARLIE -
Yes, so whatâs quite funny is because thereâs no one speaking suddenly the box gets highlighted when the dog barks or the kettleâs boiling. So the positive side is thereâs a lot of interaction where people do feel like theyâre maybe interacting even more than usual in some cases and so some of the isolation might even be less than normal in that sense.
But I think on the negative side, when you think about deaf people around the country who maybe at work theyâre with hearing people, theyâre going to a deaf club or meeting up with deaf friends in person, that does have a big effect on deaf people as well, because signing on a screen in 2D is not really the same thing. When youâre really with deaf people youâre really aware of their facial expressions, their physicality. So thatâs all kind of gone and I certainly know deaf people who are very, very social who are finding it very difficult.
SIMON -
And whether youâre hearing or deaf, youâre right, thereâs all those subtle things that are important to the communication. Itâs taken me about three or four weeks to realise it, and why Iâm so exhausted from doing video calls. You allude to it, we know thereâs discontent within the deaf community that the daily government briefings that weâve all seen at five pm, theyâre carried live on TV for the whole nation, but they donât use sign language interpreters. So what is that about?
CHARLIE -
Yes, so this is a really big concern for deaf people about the lack of interpreters being beside government minsters in England during those daily briefings. And I say in England, because in Scotland there has been an interpreter next to Nicola Sturgeon, for example, or other Scottish politicians or officials. And in many other countries you see sign language interpreters next to their leading figures. And so deaf people who are at home, you donât have that English level because sign language is their first language. They have access to the full information, which is really critical information that weâre getting.
So in the beginning with the government briefings there was no interpreter at all, then a campaign began and a deaf woman called Lynn Stewart-Taylor, she was campaigning on this with a hashtag called #WhereAreTheInterpreters, and she really got everybody galvanised, people were sending out tweets asking their MP, asking why were they being excluded from this communication. So by the end of the week there has been an interpreter whoâs been on the ±«Óătv News Channel, but that interpreterâs been added by the ±«Óătv, so when these broadcasts are then repeated, or even when theyâre shown on ±«Óătv One for example there isnât an interpreter there. So it depends on people having to find it, and none of thatâs idea.
SIMON -
Could you not go and get a newspaper? Or thereâs plenty of other ways. Is that not okay?
CHARLIE -
This is something that comes back a lot when you make these kind of arguments which Iâve spent a lot of my career dealing with, which is that deaf people who use sign language as their first language who often have faced many educational barriers, their English level in many cases is lower than the typical person. But ultimately they wouldnât pick up a newspaper and get the same amount of information. They could try and read it but there are deaf people who donât have that level of English.
So sign language is their first language, itâs the language that they use in all their communications. So when they go to the doctor for example or they need sign language interpretation, when they engage with any situation where they need really precise information, full understanding of it, they will need a sign language interpreter. And itâs for those people that the interpreter is needed.
And so this is the discussion that you have so often with people who just say, âWell, canât they watch the subtitles?â But if your comprehension of English is lower then youâre not going to get all the information. And additionally, when you look at live subtitles on these broadcasts theyâre verbatim which means itâs not really being done to be read, and additionally those live subtitles have many mistakes.
SIMON -
I now want to do a bit of the what about-ery. So what about people who need something in a different format because itâs hard to understand? What about the others?
CHARLIE -
Well, I think there is a point that you would ideally have everybody in our society having access to this really, really important information. I think the difference with deaf people is they are deaf so they do not have access to spoken language. You know, you might have people from other countries where some people would make the argument, well those people could read the information in their own language. I mean I would say that everybodyâs important, I donât want to marginalise anybody. From a deaf perspective youâve got deaf people who through no choice of their own do not have access to that information, and I think that is where there is a little bit of a distinction to be made.
SIMON -
Is it partly that sign language, the structure, is completely different from written language? I read somewhere about youâre only getting emergency information in French and you only speak English. Is there a correlation?
CHARLIE -
With sign language being a distinct language of its own it doesnât follow the rules of English. I suppose a way of describing it might be that itâs visually led, so if you were to try and write down words in sign language in English and follow that order it often wouldnât really make much sense. But in the visual language, BSL, as we see it, it makes perfect sense and itâs described very richly. But initially those certain words in English just arenât in the sign language, theyâre just not needed.
I suppose that is a good way of understanding it, is if somebody was very, very skilled in French, that was their first language, and they knew a small amount of English would they then be able to access all this information fully? Well no they wouldnât, because they would need it in French then to fully understand your obligations as a member of our society at this time you do really need that information in the language that you understand.
SIMON -
Beth, youâre spoken to the legal team about this case, so what are the details?
BETH -
I have. Well, what started as a hashtag,
#WhereAreTheInterpreters, has actually morphed into a legal campaign. So itâs quite involved so I shall go through it. From that hashtag that has morphed into a crowdfunding project to raise money for legal action. The firm Fry Law, which specialises in disability cases, has taken it on and they are taking a two-prong approach to this, because they believe itâs so important.
So, Fry Law is arguing that the lack of interpreters breaches The Equality Act, and thatâs there to protect peopleÌęfrom discrimination, harassment and victimisation.ÌęSpecifically, theyâre arguing the government has failed to carry out any sort of equality assessment when they were planning these daily briefings and therefore theyâre discriminating against anyone who is deaf.
Ìę
As is said, there are two approaches. Approach 1: The team has applied for a judicial review. Thatâs whereÌęa judgeÌęconsiders the lawfulness of a decision or action made by a public body, rather than the rights and wrongs of what that decision was.
Ìę
So, so far that legal team hasÌęasked the government to provide them with two documents: the Equality Assessment showing they considered all access needs when they were planning the briefings, and a formal agreement between No. 10 and the ±«Óătv. And as Charlie said, the ±«Óătv News Channel is providing interpreters for the press conferences. Fry Law want that document because they want to know the government sought an agreement and that it will remain in place for the duration of these briefings.
Ìę
However, the judicial review relies on the ÂŁ15,000 crowdfunding being secured within the next few days as they need the money in the bank in case they lose the case and then have to pay the governmentâs legal fees.
Ìę
If the money isnât secured, Fry Law is then going to move on to their second approach, and thatâs to file for individual damages, which basically seeks compensation for a lack of service on a case-by-case basis. And one of those cases is that of someone whoâs become known as AK. Now he is 85, lives alone and has no internet access, so he only found out about the lockdown when his daughter was able to sign that information to him.
Ìę
So thatâs the legal side. The government obviously has its own thoughts on this, and I actually phoned No.10 yesterday, the first time in my entire career, and this is the response I got:
Ìę
Ìę"It is vital that public health information reaches everyone across the country. We have established British Sign Language interpretation at the daily No. 10 press conference via the ±«Óătv News Channel and iPlayer, available on all TV packages as part of Freeview, and we are working to ensure greater replication of this signed interpretation across a wider range of media channels.â
Ìę
So itâs all very technical. But on a broader level, Charlie, if a signer is on the ±«Óătv News Channel is that not good enoughâŠ?
charlie -
I donât think it is good enough because you then have this footage being repeated on various news clips through the day, where those key phrases are being sent out and there isnât an interpreter next to this minister whoâs speaking at that time. In other countries what you see, and I think this is best practice, is actually having an interpreter within the shot. And you can still do that with the social distancing.
And in that case every time that footage is repeated you see the interpreter and deaf people will get that information. What youâre doing is youâre depending on people, not only watching the ±«Óătv, but watching the ±«Óătv News Channel at that point to get that information, whereas I think the way you should do it is make it accessible whenever that footage is seen across all these different networks and programmes.
BETH -
I think one of the other arguments is it should be the government perhaps that provides this service and not a third party, i.e. the broadcaster and ±«Óătv. So I think thatâs one of the crucial elements of where they feel The Equality Act has been breached.
CHARLIE -
Yeah, I think thatâs a really big part of this. I mean, these briefings began with no interpretation at all. It was only after the campaign began that then by the end of the week ±«Óătv News started putting the interpreter on themselves. So the government hadnât given this any thought, and what youâre in is, you know, a completely critical situation where people are being told to restrict their lives in a way theyâve never been restricted before. And when people are left out in this situation theyâre at greater risk because theyâre potentially being unaware of what their obligation to respect social distancing is.
SIMON -
I read a piece a little while ago where they were saying, âGive us the right information then us, as deaf and disabled people, we can be part of the solution.â Without that you are not only isolated but you canât get involved in the national effort as well.
CHARLIE -
Absolutely. I think what we really want is for deaf people to be part of society, to be part of the community. Amazingly weâve got these deaf individuals like Lynn Stewart-Taylor and theyâve taken action to help the community at this time. So itâs not only this hashtag, Lynnâs set up several Facebook groups offering the right kind of advice for people so that people arenât relying on just general videos on Facebook, which sometimes have misinformation in them.
SIMON -
Letâs move on from politics and Limping Chickens. Charlie, youâve been developing a career in writing for film and for television.
CHARLIE -
Yes, so alongside my journalism, for the last ten years, 12 years or so Iâve been writing scripts and trying to tell stories, often with deaf people in them. Thatâs been something Iâve been really, really passionate about. It began with a short film I made called âComing Outâ which is on YouTube about a deaf boy trying to persuade his mother that heâs deaf because his motherâs in denial.
And it sort of took off really and since then Iâve developed into writing kind of half hour dramas. Iâve made a sketch show called âDeaf Funnyâ which I won an RTS Yorkshire Writer Award for, which was something I never expected. And probably just in the last year or so Iâve been able to move into the mainstream a bit more and start telling some of my stories for some of the ±«Óătvâs programmes, which has been an incredible experience.
BETH -
Because you were in the first ever Writers Access Group werenât you which is part of the Writers Room which the ±«Óătv has which supports screenwriters. So tell us a bit more about them.
CHARLIE -
A group of deaf and disabled writers who, we all had to interview to get our place on the Writers Access group, and then from probably the autumn of 2018 all of us were meeting once a month and weâd meet different people from the ±«Óătv whoâd give us a talk about what they did. So ±«Óătv Radio, Childrenâs ±«Óătv, Continuing Dramas, and it was amazing, because I think, certainly for me on a personal level I was making a lot of stuff for deaf people and probably working in a section of the community which is a little bit cut off from the wider film making or TV making. So when I met all these people it started to feel a bit like oh, theyâre real, normal people who you could talk to and you could email, and it made it all feel a lot more accessible.
But also at these groups every month, so for me I would have a palantypist who was typing everything up so I could follow it. But there were other people with different access needs, so all our access needs were completely looked after. And then as time went on I made contact and gradually sending out these scripts then opportunities started to come up. And I was also very lucky to be mentored by âEastEndersâ Executive Producer, Jon Sen, who was very supportive and I was then able to go to a story conference for that and end up pitching my own story which they took. So that was like an incredible thing.
SIMON -
Whatâs that story?
CHARLIE -
So the story is obviously of the moment and itâs a story about Ben Mitchell becoming more deaf, because Ben Mitchell was born deaf so heâs deaf in one ear but he then loses more of his hearing. And the aim of my story was to bring in a deaf character to the square. So I pitched my story to about 30 writers in the room, a very nervous sort of experience. I look back and I still think, god, how did I do that? But I told them the story and I was then asked lots of very interesting questions, you know, âWell what about this?â and, âHow would that work?â and then they decided they would do the story. So for the last sort of six months or so Iâve been in touch with them, Iâve read storylines, given feedback and scripts in some cases. So Iâve been involved in that way.
SIMON -
I watch it from time to time and I have seen it, itâs really visible, and also they play with the sound, they artificially make it muffled and different. Was that part of the deal for people to really understand what was happening?
CHARLIE -
Absolutely. So from the beginning I wanted to give the audience a sense of how deafness can affect people, but then also coming into it we have a deaf character who has always been deaf. So the character of Frankie will be played by a deaf actress called Rose Ayling-Ellis and I think Frankie will introduce Ben to a different side of deafness, a different perspective on deafness. So I think weâre hoping to tell different sides of the deaf story.
simon -
But thatâs very smart, because typically if someone becomes disabled the narrative was the tragedy, the woe, the difficulty, the fury and we always said, yeah, but once youâve had it for a while you adjust. So youâre bringing in the character whoâs already living with it and can show that there is life after becoming disabled or becoming deaf.
CHARLIE -
Thatâs right. I think thatâs really important because deaf people experience deafness in very different ways, and I certainly grew up in a deaf family and my parents were always proud of their deaf identity. They were very positive and happy to be deaf, as I am. And so I do think itâs really important to give that side of it.
I think the team have been incredibly supportive. And I should also say that what I pitched was two or three pages of story which then it changes a bit, thereâs a lot added onto it, it becomes a story told over weeks and months.
BETH -
And as we said at the beginning youâre also writing for âCasualtyâ which is my particular favourite. So what stories have you got going on there?
CHARLIE -
Myself and another writer on the ±«Óătv Writers Scheme, Sophie Wooley, we met somebody who at the time worked at âDoctorsâ who then moved to âCasualtyâ and she said to us, âWould you like to come and talk about a deaf character weâve got? The nurse, Jade.â So we went for the day down in Cardiff and talked about all these deaf stories and all of Jadeâs sort of history as a character and we developed a story which then we were commissioned to write together.
So we wrote this episode, and actually whatâs really special about it is itâs very much from Jadeâs perspective. So we really do get into Jadeâs mind and we hear the world at times as she hears it, and it has some sign language in it, it has some really emotional moments, and I think youâll be pleased to know it also has quite a big stunt. And I should also add that as well as having two deaf writers there is a deaf director called John Maidens who directed the episodes. And it also stars another deaf actor called Sophie Stone. So youâve got an episode with five key deaf people involved in making it, which is a deaf episode, and I think thatâs hopefully a really strong message for the industry.
BETH -
How does it work? As we were saying earlier, sign language as a language is very different to English. The structure, the grammar. So for you whatâs it like when your career is based on dialogue, and writing dialogue, in English?
CHARLIE -
Thatâs a really good question because Iâve spent many years writing dramas, comedies for deaf characters, and often when Iâm writing their dialogue Iâm writing it in a very clear way in English because it will then be translated into sign language. So when I wrote my âCasualtyâ episode along with Sophie one of the things that I really enjoyed but also had to learn about was writing more spoken dialogue for the first time. But I also had to slightly adjust to it, because deaf communicationâs often quite direct so I found that some of my early writing, maybe I was writing it a little bit too obviously so I was then able to write these spoken dialogue scenes and I really, really enjoyed it.
SIMON -
I would bet that you will have your own series or drama or something soon and everyone will go, well Charlie, heâs an overnight success. But you have worked so hard for so long. But in terms of today and lockdown are you really disciplined?
CHARLIE -
Thank you so much for your kind words, Simon. Yes, itâs a big change at the moment. I guess early in my career I knew people who maybe had certain conditions actually that almost gave them like a ticking clock and they had to get on and do stuff while they were still well enough. I guess I really admired those kind of people, but I did kind of take something from that a bit which I just think you do have to try and make things happen.
As Iâve worked Iâve always thought well, whatâs the next thing I can try and make, and hit my deadlines? I think thatâs a huge thing. But probably the first couple of weeks of lockdown were two of the hardest weeks of writing Iâve even done because my kids were at home and I was feeling so wrapped up in the news I found it so hard to think about my story because my story also just felt really irrelevant that I feel like as a family my family adjusted a bit, my kids got into the routine. The main thing that Iâve done at the moment to make it work is Iâve just been waking up super early, half five, six oâclock, and Iâve done two or three hours of writing before the kids have really got out of bed. And the rest of the day doesnât feel as stressful.
BETH -
Lockdown is maybe prime time for people who have maybe wondered about giving writing a go. Theyâre kind of at home, they havenât got a commute maybe, they can sort of start thinking, thereâs plenty of things going on to spark a story, so what are your top tips to any aspiring writers?
CHARLIE -
My main tip is always if you can do some writing, however much it is, it could be half an hour, it could be an hour, just get something on the page, because when youâve got something you can then think about the bits you werenât sure about or the bits you donât yet have or you can just improve the thing that youâve written. In a way the process of writing, of writing more and then editing it and then adding to it and changing it, you find a lot of the answers of how to tell your story through that process.
Sometimes you just throw away what youâve done and itâs heart-breaking but itâs only by actually getting on with it that you can then start to progress. And donât be afraid to look for the opportunities that are out there for disabled writers, because Graeae have been running a monologue scheme. DANC, the Disabled Artists Network and Community, theyâve been running webinars.
SIMON -
Beth, why do I thinkâŠ? Weâve spoken offline and you have⊠Youâre writing something arenât you?
BETH -
I am. I mean this is the first public outing of it, only a few people knew. Itâs not a screenplay. Iâm trying to write a classic novel. And I donât mean classic in terms of classic literature, I mean just like writing a novel. And yeah, I think Charlieâs right, itâs just literally doing the writing, even if itâs a few minutes. And sometimes what Iâve found is if I just give myself five minutes and once youâve started the five minutes you kind of get into the flow and youâre back into the story. But another way that really gets me motivated is you know you get all these inspirational quotes on Instagram? My favourite ever is âyou think you have time but you donâtâ.
SIMON -
Yeah. Well youâre giving me a shiver with that because it does kind of put it in perspective.
CHARLIE -
Writingâs hard work, itâs like anything else. Itâs all a journey and if you were trying to become skilled at anything you would have to just work up towards it. and I think even the most experienced writers that Iâve met, they never seem to feel like they know everything. I think you have to give it a try and going for it and enjoying it for what it is.
SIMON -
I think we have to wrap up this podcast so we can all go and get writing the great British screenplay. Thank you to Charlie Swinbourne and to Beth for coming on board this episode of Cabin Fever. Donât forget to check out âThe Isolation Diaryâ, itâs another Ouch original podcast which follows my regular co-host, Kate Monaghan, on her self-isolation journey with her young family. And I still canât believe Ouch split us up. If thatâs not enough for you, ±«Óătv Sounds has a huge back catalogue of content for you to check out. Keep in touch, tell us what we should be covering, how weâre doing. You can get hold of us. Itâs ±«Óătv Ouch on Facebook. @bbcouch on Twitter and ouch@bbc.co.uk. Until next time, bye.
BETH -
Bye.
CHARLIE -
Bye.
Ìę
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