Should Blindness be Front and Centre?
Should your identity as a visually impaired person always be at the front and centre of your life? We discuss this ambiguous question with an author, a campaigner and a comedian.
In Touch discusses whether your blindness should be at the front and centre of your life. Perhaps an ambiguous question because it can depend on the environment you're in, the company that you share, whether you need help and many other factors. What is undoubtedly true though, is that it's not that easy to go completely under the radar with poor sight or none.
We tease this out with author Andrew Leland, who spent time researching visually impaired people and the way society interacts with us, Rachael Andrews, who is not afraid to campaign for herself, and other people at the same time, and stand-up comedian Jamie MacDonald, who uses his blindness as a tool to make other people laugh.
Presenter: Peter White
Producer: Beth Hemmings
Production Coordinator: Liz Poole
Website image description: Peter White sits smiling in the centre of the image and he is wearing a dark green jumper. Above Peter's head is the ±«Óćtv logo (three separate white squares house each of the three letters). Bottom centre and overlaying the image are the words "In Touch" and the Radio 4 logo (the word Radio in a bold white font, with the number 4 inside a white circle). The background is a bright mid-blue with two rectangles angled diagonally to the right. Both are behind Peter, one is a darker blue and the other is a lighter blue.
Last on
In Touch Transcript 02/04/2024
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IN TOUCH ā Should Blindness be Front and Centre?
TX:Ģż 02.04.2024Ģż 2040-2100
PRESENTER:Ģż ĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢż PETER WHITE
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PRODUCER:ĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢżĢż BETH HEMMINGS
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White
Good evening.Ģż Do we, visually impaired people, want to be seen as a group huddling together for warmth or do we resent the tendency to shove us all in the same category, what, in less linguistically sensitive times, people used to refer to as āthe blindā?Ģż If you wanted to be a clever clogs, of course, you might claim that the mere fact that youāre listening to In Touch proves that we do see ourselves as, at the very least, an interest group.Ģż But then you could contradict that by saying that many of us listen for information and that audience research and emails and letters we get show that many of those who do listen donāt have a sight problem at all, presumably theyāre just nosey.Ģż What is undoubtedly true though is that if youāre the shy and retiring type itās not easy to go under the radar with poor sight or none.Ģż I realised that at the moment I got up from the seat on the station platform where I was writing this script, Iād immediately be identified as part of that group, as I unfurled my white cane, searched for the train door and then tried to find an empty seat, attempting to avoid sitting on someoneās lap ā all that stuff.
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So, do we accept the inevitable and embrace the identity full on or are there ways to select the profile we want to share with the rest of the world?
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Well, to discuss this dilemma Iām joined by three people who seem to have gone about this in rather different ways.Ģż One whoās fighting her corner and other peopleās at the same time.Ģż One, whoās looked at the funny side of blindness and one who because heās losing his sight has tried to analyse it.
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Rachael Andrews, you basically took on the government by insisting on having a way to cast your vote secretly and independently and youāre currently taking on the social care system and your landlord for failing to send you accessible correspondence.Ģż Are you a natural scrapper or have circumstances forced it on you?
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Andrews
Am I natural scrapper?Ģż Maybe people, who know me, would say yes but I would say no and I have to admit that a lot of the things that I now fight for, sometimes Iām doing it for the principle of it, sometimes Iām doing it for myself and sometimes Iām doing it for the people who come after me.Ģż So, maybe I am a natural scrapper, Iāve never thought about it, possibly, yeah.
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White
But you do seem to have developed a taste for it since the court case that brought you to peopleās notice.
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Andrews
Yeah, maybe, I donāt know if a taste for it is the right thing, I think Iāve been in the right place at the right time and people have sort of come to me and said ā you know, Iām really fed up with this situation, what should I do about it but I donāt have the mental energy to take it on.Ģż So, I am now vice chair of a local charity called Inclusive Norwich, so thatās what I do all day long, I not only fight the cause for people who are visually impaired and need access in that right but also for all sorts of other disabilities as well.Ģż So, I think maybe I was in the right place at the right time and just sort of decided, yeah, okay, might as well, you know.
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White
Right, we may come back to you on whether you want to do it all day long.Ģż I want to bring in Jamie, Jamie MacDonald, youāre a stand-up comedian.Ģż Youāve decided to mine blindness for its jokes, is that a defence mechanism or do you just think blindness can actually be quite funny?
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MacDonald
Yeah, I think you can blend the blindness and humour quite nicely.Ģż Itās interesting that this is the topic today because Iāve literally finished a show, my new work in progress show, that talks about us beingā¦ I feel that disabled people have only been accepted as a lump and I do believe we should be accepted on more of an individual level, Iād say that disabled folk were like snowflakes, you know, thereās not two of us the same and if a lot of us fall people panic.Ģż And the struggle now, because Iāve got RP, so I steadily lost my sight over about 30 years, I donāt want to go back to the way it kind of was and I talk about this in the show, the difference between now and then, where it was a kind of inaccessible world 30 years ago but now the world isā¦ itās a more kind of caring, nice place towards disabled people.Ģż But the new struggle that I find now is that nice, new, kind people will do the wrong thing but for the right reasons and Iāll have to thank them for it and kind of suck it up.Ģż An example I use of that is when I got a cup of tea off the train, itās always train act that was for blind people, isnāt it?
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White
Weāll have some more, our third guest is between trains, soā¦
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MacDonald
I got a cup of tea off the trolley; it was roasting and the old lady next to me blew on it for me.Ģż And I just had to thank her and drink round the saliva.Ģż So, I think thereās that kind ofā¦ there has to beā¦ you are an individual but you are blind, so you have got one thing in common with other blind people but thatās it, thatās the one thing you have and then behind the eyes is totally different from the head to toes.
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White
Okay, let me bring in Andrew Leland, who is the one whoās between trains.Ģż As a reaction to knowing you were likely to lose your sight, because I think youāve got the same thing as Jamie actually, youāve written a book ā The Country of the Blind ā analysing the different ways in which we react to the situation.Ģż Has it made you want to join the club?
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Leland
I mean Iām joining it whether I like to or not, thereās no cure for RP and my vision changes year by year.Ģż So, in that sense, Iām on a one-way train and thereās no getting off of it.Ģż But I guess the question is more about whether I band together with this lump, youāre describing, or try to be individual.Ģż And I find real solace and power in connecting with other blind people.Ģż I think about something a blind friend of mine said about braille, which is that, we take for granted how kids, sighted kids, are just surrounded by a world of print and to sort of expose the blind kids to a commensurate amount of braille requires like a really concerted effort.Ģż And Iāve found that with blindness in general, you know, like I think just figuring little things like what kind of screen reader should I use or what kind of cane or should I learn braille ā all those questions Iām very alone in until I really had to spend years immersing myself.Ģż And those are just on a purely practical level, crucial questions and things for a blind person to figure out.Ģż And so, yeah, I think community has real value thereā¦
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White
But thereās another way to look at it, Andrew, which some blind people do say to me, which is the only trouble with a lot of blind people getting together is that then they all whinge.Ģż Is whinge an American term, Iām not sure, moan, complain.
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Leland
If not whining, we would probably say whining or complaining.Ģż But, yeah, I mean, I would say thereās therapeutic value in complaining, you donāt want to have that be your primary occupation but youāve got to have a release valve for it and if thereās no one else in your life whoās going to be able to appreciate a stranger blowing on your tea in quite the same way, I think thereās value in that.
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White
So, will you go on?Ģż I mean I know in doing your research you went to a lot of large organisations, things like the NFB ā National Federation of the Blind ā in America, do you think youāll stay with that kind of stuff?
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Leland
Stay with those kinds of group?
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White
The organisations, yeah, I mean I just wonder whether youāre a joiner or whether you want to be a slipper under the radar, carry on.
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Leland
Well, Iāve cracked that code by becoming a writer and I feel like I can hide under this cover of journalistic objectivity and say, you know, Iām writing about the NFB but I donāt join them but along the way I get to meet all these incredible blind mentors and go to their training centres.Ģż So, I try to have my cake and eat it too by dint of becoming a writer.
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White
I must say, I mean, it is the contradictions in our own attitudes that quite interest me because you quite often hear blind people say things like ā I just want to be treated like everybody else ā but of course, at the moment we are treated like everybody else that can lead to problems too because it means you wonāt get the help when you need it.Ģż Rachael, essentially, your campaigns involve us not being treated like everyone else, donāt they, I mean they involve concessions or perhaps youād prefer it if I said adaptations but they certainly donāt involve us being treated like everybody else?
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Andrews
No, I think youāre right, I think what the campaigns and the work that I do and the people that I work with, what we do is we want the outcome to be like everybody else.Ģż So, although I recognise the fact that when I go and vote Iām never going to be treated like everybody else because the voting system is entirely a visual thing, the outcome of what I want is the same as everybody else, if you see what I mean.Ģż So, I want it on equal terms.Ģż But I do recognise that because of the dint in my blindness I cannot do it like everyone else.Ģż So, yeah, itās a difficult balance to strike but you donāt have a choice, as Andrew said, weāre on a train and thereās no getting off.Ģż So, youāve just got to do what youāve got to do really.
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White
Right.Ģż Is thereā¦ yeah go on, Jamie.
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MacDonald
Well, just Iād argue that thereāsā¦ in a way that thereās no blind, thereās also no everybody else, thatās the kind of bit of a cover up concept as well because itās like, it suggests that everybody else is treated brilliantly and weāre treated awful.Ģż I think, when you say, we want to be treated like everybody else, itās more like we just donāt want to be patronised or dragged across streets that you didnāt want to cross, you know, just peopleās understanding of blindness because basically what youāre dealing with, when youāre being mistreated as their interpretation of what they think you want them to do in this nice world.Ģż So, weāve kind of created a rod for our own backs by saying this is people not being treated like this, oh so itās alright, so weāre going to get treated like that are we.Ģż You know, the genieās out the bottle.Ģż But I donāt think thereās a case to say thereās an everybody else and then thereās blind people, I donāt think either of those are single things.
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White
Right.Ģż I did promise, Rachael, to come back to you on the issue of do you really want to be doing these things each day and every day because almost once you get your identity as a campaigner, youāre sort of stuck with it, arenāt you?
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Andrews
Yeah, kind of and Iāve really kind of embraced that by joining Inclusive Norwich and being veryā¦
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White
Did they pay you to say their name twice Rachael?
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Andrews
No, no but I am the vice chair so Iām going to get it in whenever I can, you know, I understand thereās no such thing as bad publicity.Ģż But, no, you donāt want to do it all the time but there are certain times where the world forces you to have to do it or if you donāt want to, you can go away and go ā okay, well Iām just not going to do that thing again or Iām not going to go with that shop or Iām not going to interact with that thing.Ģż And sometimes I do just go home and go, do you know, I canāt be bothered, Iām not doing it today, Iād just rather go and walk my guide dog.Ģż And there are other days where Iām mostly at the time ā yeah, okay, letās have a bit of a scrap.Ģż So, like Jamie says, thereās no one type of blind person and you donāt have to be the same sort of blind person every day either.Ģż So, it just depends on how youāre feeling, you know.
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White
I want to go back to Andrew on Penn Station in New York because itās the contradictions that do fascinate me.Ģż I mean, again, it was on a station the other day when I realised just how drastic some of the contradictions are in that I wanted to just stand on the platform waiting to meet somebody, I didnāt want to go anywhere, I didnāt want to do anything and I stood on that platform and about five people came up and wanted to help me.Ģż Now when I do want help, none of those people are ever around, you know, and so I get angry when thereās no one to help and I get angry when people want to help me when I donāt want help.Ģż Is that something youāve seen in yourā¦ these contradictions that seem to assail us really?
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Leland
Yeah, that is such a confounding problem.Ģż And to expect the world to finely calibrate itself to be just what every blind person wants and then, of course, like you say, some blind people want more, some blind people want less where different situations demand the differencesā¦
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White
Yeah but the trouble you want more and less within about 10 minutes of it yourself, you know, itās not other people wantingā¦ itās you wanting, yeah, thatās what I find so tricky.
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Leland
Yeah, yeah, I mean, thereās no universal rule.Ģż I mean I think the only rule of thumb that I think sighted people just need to understand and to carry with them is to listen to the blind person because I think so often somebody will say ā Oh, do you need some help ā and then theyāll say no and then that answer will be sort of brushed off and theyāll say ā Well, let me just offer you something, clearly youāre in distress on some level ā and just pushing and pushing.Ģż And I donāt know if it requires like wearing a t-shirt that says like actually Iām fine, thanks, unless Iām waving my arm.Ģż But I think thatās the big lesson is just believe the blind person and let the blind person say what they need rather than offering it to them or dragging them across the street.
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White
Right.Ģż I want to stay with you to raise something which Iām going to raise with all three of you.Ģż Itās just one of the best quotes, I think, I think it was in your book, Andrew, but Iāve seen it a few times, this lady Georgina Kleege who said: āOn a good day, my blindness is less important than the weather.āĢż Is that something you canā¦ as someone whoās losing their sight, is that something you can imagine?
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Leland
Yeah, you know, I think itās tricky to compare disability to other identities but I also think itās useful in a way.Ģż When I think about, letās say gender, Iām a man and there are times when itās important for me to say that, you know, and to be a man.Ģż Thereās times when my masculinity is relevant.Ģż But when Iām going to eat lunch later today, Iām not going to be eating my salad as a man, right, Iām just eating a salad.Ģż And I think blindness can have the same kind of valence, itās like there are times, yes, when I need an accessible voting machine, right, or I need these materials to be put in accessibly or there needs to be braille labels on this elevator.Ģż But many times, Iām just, you know, Iām eating lunch, Iām going to work, Iām hanging out with my family and blindness does matter less than weather, as Georgina said.
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White
I mean Jamie, this issue of contradictions but also if Georgina Kleege is right and itās less important than the weather, thatās tough for you, isnāt it, youāve built a lot of your act on the fact that itās quite a big deal?
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MacDonald
Well, if itās less important than the weather, thatās the case when itās icy, when the weather is very important.Ģż I see contradiction inā¦ the blindness as being part of everyday life is part of the [indistinct word], itās not exceptional, itās just little things, it doesnāt have to be a significant blind thing.Ģż Like I always think itās hilarious that they put braille, the word ābleachā in braille on bottles because I just wonder whose life has that saved, you know, like these little kinds of insignificant inconsequential things but are just so hilarious, itās like no blind personās going to drink bleach because thereās no braille on the bottle telling them itās bleach.Ģż Thereās so many little things that are overlookedā¦ I mean itās not a significant blind thing that we all kind of take care walking down the street, thatās just how we live our life, the blindness kind of steers our life in that kind of scenario.Ģż But I do feel that it is always there, if you think about it, youāre always doing something like, you know, if youāre doing something with the oven, youāre not looking at the numbers, youāve figured out how to do it.Ģż But thatās governed by your blindness.
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White
The great thing about this bottle story is that somebody pointed out that it was so significant that the English put braille on a bottle of bleach but the French put it on a bottle of champagne, which says a lot about the English, I think.
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Rachael, less important?Ģż How many days is it blindness less important than the weather to you?
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Andrews
Well, I think that depends on what youāre doingā¦
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White
On the blindness and the weather, I suppose.
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Andrews
Yeah, I think it also depends on, unfortunately ā and this seems like a really terrible generalisation to make ā but the rest of the world because I can [indistinct words] down the street with my guide dog and most people say ā oh are you training the dog ā for a start because, of course, apparentlyā¦ I mean I donāt even know what a typical guide dog ownerās meant to look like, apparently I donāt look like one.Ģż And then they will say ā how fantastic the guide dog is and oh I bet youād be lost without him.Ģż Yes I would.Ģż Isnāt he handsome?Ģż Yes, he is.Ģż Oh heās so amazing.Ģż Yes, he is.Ģż And then Iāll move off and theyāll go ā Oh mind those steps or mind the lamppost ā and Iāll think well did you just not sort of spend 10 minutes telling me how fantastic he was.Ģż So, the rest of the world does have a little bit of a problem with what to do and how to treat visual impairment.Ģż So, sometimes, if I donāt meet that in the rest of the world my visual impairment is not that important.Ģż I mean, obviously, as Jamie says, it governs how you do things but itās not front and centre of everything I do.Ģż Itās when it goes wrong that it actually has to come front and centre.
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White
That was, in a way, right at the root of why I wanted to talk about this.Ģż Front and centre.Ģż Let me just go back to you, Andrew, finally on this.Ģż Youāve written a book about it, youāve spent a huge amount of time researching it.Ģż Can you imagine it not being front and centre?
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Leland
I mean I think thatā¦ that the point that was just made is spot on.Ģż I wrote about a blind bioethicist named Adrienne Asch who was blind from birth and always argued that blindness was incidental in her life andā¦ until she entered the job market, she graduated from college and was exclusively denied a job because she was blind.Ģż And her friends joked, like Adrienne is 23-years-old and just realised sheās blind.Ģż And I think that that kind of sums it up for me, is that you donāt need to think about it, itās just a way of living until it excludes you and it pushes you away from inclusion, whether thatās inclusion to information, how you access information or society or employment and all the things that blind people can be marginalised from.
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White
Okay, that sounds like a good place to stop.Ģż Andrewās got to catch a train, Rachaelās got to go to a meeting, what have you got to do Jamie?
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MacDonald
Iāll go for a nap, I think.
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White
Go for a nap.Ģż Well, look, thank you all so much ā Rachael Andrews, Jamie MacDonald, Andrew Leland ā between trains ā thank you very much indeed.
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Weād like to know what you think, listening to that, are you a huddler together for warmth or a striker out for your own identity or are we entitled to do both?Ģż You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 and thereās more information on our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ģż Next week, weāre going to be looking at plans to improve the ways visually impaired students get tailor-made equipment and human support.Ģż Thatās it, from me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings, our guests and studio managers Kelly Young and James Bradshaw, goodbye.
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News, views and information for people who are blind or partially sighted