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IN TOUCH 鈥� Pavement Parking

TX:听 09.01.2024听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Even the mildest mannered of visually impaired people can be reduced to impotent fury by this:

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Clip

Lucy and I have just left the house.听 We鈥檝e already come to a stop.听 Lucy鈥檚 taken me up to the side of the road, as there鈥檚 a car on the pavement which is very common.听 Forward.听 Over.听 I鈥檓 now in the middle of the road, there鈥檚 quite a bit of noise down here, so I can鈥檛 hear if there鈥檚 any cars coming.听 It鈥檚 coming down dark, so it鈥檚 even scarier because I have no useful vision at all during the dark.听 Good girl.听 It is just absolutely exasperating.听 Forward.听 Good girl.听 Good girl.

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White

Now there was some excitement back in 2019 when we were able to announce that Scotland was to be the first home country to make parking on pavements a statutory offence nationwide and that drivers breaking the rules could be subject to fines of up to 拢100.听 At last, many of you told us, because this has been a problem since鈥� well, ever since motor vehicles and pedestrians were expected to co-exist.听 And yet only now is the Scottish act coming into force and already we鈥檙e hearing about some of the Scottish local authorities who鈥檝e been given the powers to enforce it pushing back on the amount of work involved and the cost of enforcing it.听 Still, at least Scotland is doing something about it and in a moment we鈥檒l be hearing from the Transport Minister about the differences she鈥檚 hoping it will make.

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First though, Lyn Hetherington, whose voice we heard at the top of the programme as she struggled to navigate the roads around where she lives on the outskirts of Glasgow.

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Lyn, I mean, first of all, tell us a bit more about the hazards cars and other vehicles pose for you.

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Hetherington

Well, in my daily life it is a struggle.听 We come across cars on the pavement at least four or five times a day and that鈥檚 just in our local area without going into Glasgow.听 My guide dog, she goes to the side of the kerb when she comes to a car and there鈥檚 no space to get down the inside.听 Now she will take me off the pavement and I don鈥檛 have any distance vision whatsoever, so, I don鈥檛 know if it鈥檚 a number of cars or just the one, so I鈥檓 going off the kerb with her help.听 But the scary part of it is you don鈥檛 know if you鈥檙e going to be meeting a car or if there鈥檚 going to be a car come up behind you, you just have to take your chances as far as that鈥檚 concerned.

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White

And have you had particularly bad experiences?

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Hetherington

Yes, my husband鈥檚 a guide dog owner as well.听 We did have one bad experience where we had to come off the pavement but it wasn鈥檛 for one car, it was for probably about 10-12 cars.听 There was a local football match on and the cars were all up on both sides of the road and we had no option, we couldn鈥檛 even cross the road to go on another pavement.听 So, that was actually quite scary.听 And one of the other times I had was actually when a van鈥� when I was walking down the road the van crossed in front of me and went onto the pavement.听 And if that wasn鈥檛 bad enough, it decided to start reversing.

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White

Can I ask you 鈥� do you ever challenge the people who put these vehicles in your path?

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Hetherington

My husband, he challenges people and he had one where he came off the kerb, had to go past this van that was completely on the pavement and the person inside was actually sitting having their lunch.听 So, my husband tackled him and the man came out of the van and started verbally abusing my husband who walked off at that point, didn鈥檛 want any more confrontation than that.听 So, yes, we do get confrontation from people who think that it鈥檚 okay to do what they鈥檙e doing.

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White

Now I鈥檓 sure you鈥檙e pleased that something, at least, is happening in Scotland but I think you鈥檙e still concerned about how quickly this will come into force.听 The council in your area 鈥� Glasgow city 鈥� has said:

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Glasgow city council statement

In line with Transport Scotland guidance we are undertaking a full assessment of footway parking throughout the city to help us establish if it would be appropriate to exempt any streets from the pavement parking ban.听 Once our footway assessment is complete a report will be put before committee in due course.

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Lyn, how confident does that make you feel?

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Hetherington

That actually makes me feel as if I鈥檓 back to square one because I鈥檓 a lot in the city centre, it鈥檚 usually bigger vehicles, so it鈥檚 longer spaces but you don鈥檛 come off the kerb there, as nobody would walk up a street in the middle of Glasgow, so, you need to actually backtrack, you need to find a crossing, you need to go up the other side of the road and then find another crossing to get back and double back.听 People are reasonable, we understand that there are places that this is not going to manage to happen but to have to think that they鈥檙e starting that now, you鈥檙e talking another year or two years before they get finished.

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White

Okay, stay with us.听 Listening to that has been the Scottish Transport Minister, Fiona Hyslop.听 Minister, thanks for coming on.听 How soon do you think it鈥檒l be before Lyn can walk her streets more confidently?

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Hyslop

Well, I agree that pavement parking needs to end, it鈥檚 unfair, it鈥檚 unsafe and it鈥檚 been illegal in Scotland since 2019.听 Now remember the Transport Act came in on November 2019 just before the pandemic.听 Since then, obviously, we鈥檝e tried ensure all the different regulations have been brought in, there was a disruption to that timescale but the exemption, you鈥檝e been talking about, the powers for councils to exempt, have been in place for some time and it鈥檒l be up to individual councils, who know their streets better than clearly central government to understand which ones they can exempt or should exempt and which not to. 听I鈥檓 very pleased that Edinburgh City Council have taken a lead, they鈥檝e already put forward their proposals to the relevant council committee and will be enforcing the new powers, which we brought in to effect in December last year to have the ability to fine people who are parking illegally, and they鈥檙e bringing their powers into force practically from the end of this month.

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White

But Lyn鈥檚 point was, you know, shouldn鈥檛 this work, about which Glasgow and many other councils have been talking, shouldn鈥檛 they have been carried out back in 2019 rather than waiting for the full enforcement of this act last month?

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Hyslop

So, I鈥檓 the transport minister for Scotland, we brought forward, I think, groundbreaking legislation that enables local authorities right across the country to tackle pavement parking.听 They鈥檙e all, perhaps, do it in a different way but they鈥檙e all on that journey to make sure that that can happen.听 Some are ahead of others.听 But it鈥檚 not my job, as a government minister, to make councils and enforce them to use powers which they have the responsibility to carry out.听 But I think it鈥檚 really important that we try and raise awareness more generally about the issue of pavement parking and that is why we鈥檙e also embarking on a nationwide communications campaign, using social media, using radio advertising to try and alert people to this issue.

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Communications campaign clip

Pavement parking is unsafe, unfair and illegal and you could be fined up to 拢100 for it.听 Find out more and about exemptions at roadsafety.scot.

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White

Isn鈥檛 this, though, a bit about鈥� you mentioned the fines but this is about money as far as actually doing the work isn鈥檛 it?听 If I can just quote you a couple of the other councils which have made this kind of point.听 Inverclyde Council pointed us to a report from a meeting of their environmental and regeneration committee which says: 鈥淓nforcement will not be possible in Inverclyde without the necessary funding and resources for implementation and management, including the promotion of exemption orders.鈥澨� And they need to go through detailed assessments first to see what鈥檚 required.听 And Scottish Borders Council said: 鈥淟ike most other Scottish local authorities we鈥檙e awaiting word from Transport Scotland on further funding opportunities to be made available to fund the enforcement of the new bill.听 The council will not be in a position to carry out enforcement of the new Transport Bill for the time being.鈥澨�

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Minister, is there going to be money for them?

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Hyslop

So, the councils have been given 拢2.4 million to do the work that you鈥檝e been talking about, which has been about the exemption side of things and they鈥檝e had the funding to enable them to do that.听 I can鈥檛 speak for Borders Council, so I can鈥檛 speak for Inverclyde Council but I can speak for the people of Scotland.听 The reason that this pavement parking ban was brought in was increasingly members of the Scottish Parliament were receiving complaints and concerns by, yes, people who have got visual impairments but also those people that have got double buggies or single buggies or older people walking with dogs 鈥� a whole variety of people 鈥� wheelchair users, who want to be able to use their pavements and to do so in a safe way and that is why we brought this forward.听 That is the correct responsibility of the Scottish government but we also respect councils and the powers and responsibilities they have.听 But I am absolutely convinced that they will be approached by their own constituents in their own areas demanding that they move faster and with more purpose, like Edinburgh Council, who will be bringing in their full powers by the end of January.

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White

But just to stay with that point.听 If it鈥檚 a nationwide ban on pavement parking, which it is, shouldn鈥檛 it perhaps be funded by the nations, you know, because I mean we know hard pressed local authorities are?

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Hyslop

So, we have already provided funding for the initial work on the exemptions.听 We are in discussion with COSLA, who are the representative bodies of the councils, to identify what additional support they need to have to help support that rollout.听 But there has to be a political will here and if you believe that our pavements should be safe spaces for people, if you believe in fairness in our society and if you, as a council, want to serve all of your community, then you will do what Edinburgh Council have done and you鈥檒l take forward this and implement this.听 So, yes, we can provide enabling powers nationally, which is what we鈥檝e done but I would appeal to everybody to think about the type of country and the type of society we want and I want one where everybody can have access to their pavements and we can all benefit from that ban on pavement parking.

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White

Let me just finally, quickly, go back to Lyn 鈥� Lyn Hetherington 鈥� you鈥檝e got the minister鈥檚 ear, what would you like to see happen now?

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Hetherington

Well, by listening it sounds as if, yes, it鈥檚 been passed, yes, you support it but it doesn鈥檛 sound as if the enforcement is something that is going to go any quicker than it has been since 2019 and it鈥檚 the safety of lots of people that are using the pavements, as you say.

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White

Final response to that minister?

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Hyslop

Well, there was no movement before 2019 and not until we鈥檝e got the penalties brought in in December, so I鈥檓 perhaps more hopeful than Lyn.听 I do think that if she hasn鈥檛 already done so she鈥檒l be contacting her local councillor to see what they can do to ensure that pavement parking in her part of Scotland can be implemented as quickly as it is in the city of Edinburgh.

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White

We may have to invite you both on again, to see how it is going.听 Lyn Hetherington and Scotland鈥檚 Transport Minister, Fiona Hyslop, thank you both very much.

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Both

Thank you.

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White

Meanwhile, in other parts of the UK I think I can hear some blind and partially sighted people saying 鈥� well, at least Scotland is doing something.听 Although there are some parking bans notionally in place in England, in London, for example, there doesn鈥檛 seem to be much taking place in the way of enforcement.听 I鈥檓 joined now by Mike Bell, who鈥檚 the Thomas Pocklington Trust鈥檚 Head of Public Affairs and Campaigns.

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Mike, just last week you鈥檝e reinforced a campaign, I think, that鈥檚 been running for some time.听 We know the issues, as we鈥檝e heard what鈥檚 happening, albeit more slowly than they鈥檇 like in Scotland, what are you calling for?

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Bell

What we鈥檙e calling for, Peter, is the government to get on and introduce legislation to ban pavement parking in England.听 It鈥檚 four years now since they first ran a consultation on taking action on pavement parking and we think it鈥檚 just beyond time for a really clear and simple law that says pavement parking should be banned, the presumption should be that it鈥檚 not allowed and then we would encourage the government to go down the line of giving councils the power to introduce pavement parking by exception but not by the norm.听 So, it would give the flexibility to local councils but the simple policy would be 鈥� no pavement parking allowed in England.

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White

So, in other words, you accept that there are narrow roads, you accept that there are some circumstances where you need to be sure emergency vehicles can get through but you want the presumption to be that you don鈥檛 park on the pavement?

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Bell

Exactly right.听 We all recognise that there are some streets and some locations where pavement parking has got to be permitted but what we want is for that to be the exception and not the norm.

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White

You said four years but you鈥檒l know that campaigns, like yours, have been running now for鈥� well, well over 50 years.听 I mean I started working on this programme in the 鈥�70s and it was one of the first things that I remember trying to cover, in particular, the campaign of the National Federation of the Blind.听 How do you think you can succeed where none of the others did?

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Bell

Well, in fairness, we鈥檒l give the government some credit that after, you鈥檙e exactly right, decades of campaigning on this issue by a huge range of organisations the government did finally consult, the Department for Transport ran their consultation back in 2020 and all we鈥檙e asking for now is for them to just move it on to the next stage.听 So, publish the results of the consultation and then introduce the legislation, as they said they were going to do.听 And now鈥檚 the time for the government to act.听 So, we are asking people to write to their MPs and to the Secretary of State for Transport, Mark Harper, and just ask them to get on with it.

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White

Well, we invited Mark Harper on, we were told he wasn鈥檛 available for interview, although we did get this statement from the department.听 They say鈥� everyone should be able to navigate their streets without obstacles and while local authorities already have powers to prohibit through local regulation.听 鈥淲e have consulted鈥︹�� 鈥� as you鈥檝e said there 鈥� 鈥溾��on further helping them to take action. 听The response to this will be published in due course.鈥澨�

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It鈥檚 always a slightly alarming phrase 鈥榠n due course鈥� because you don鈥檛 know how due course is, do you?

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Bell

No, absolutely.听 I mean I think our message is really clear 鈥� this is really a simple straightforward piece of legislation, this is not complicated, we鈥檝e got an existing model in Scotland, as you mentioned earlier there are other parts of England where there are private acts of parliament that have restricted pavement parking 鈥� we just need a clear law to be introduced and they need to get on with it now.

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White

So, just to remind people what this is really about, we鈥檙e also joined by Dave Smith, he鈥檚 an engagement manager for one of the trust鈥檚 sight loss councils.听 Dave, I think you鈥檝e had not one but two close encounters with dangerously parked vehicles in the last few months?

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Smith

Yeah, I have.听 I come across parked vehicles every day I go out.听 One that kind of, I guess, it sticks in my mind quite a lot because it hurt, was I was walking out just around my local area, a very familiar area that I walk, I鈥檓 a long cane user and I walked straight into a scaffold pole that was sticking out the back of a scaffolding truck.听 Initially it鈥檚 that ouch, a few expletives, I guess and then it鈥檚 like 鈥� where am I, why have I just walked into something so sharp and hard?听 And I realised that it was a truck that had parked completely on the pavement, blocking the pavement.

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White

How much damage did it do to you?

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Smith

Well, I wear glasses 鈥� sunglasses 鈥� just to try and block out some of the glare from the sun but it bent the glasses and it burst the top of my nose open and kind of bruised my ego.听 From my point of view as a blind person navigating, it just adds the additional kind of anxiety.听 I don鈥檛 walk as quickly because I鈥檓 now anticipating that something鈥檚 going to be in my way and it shouldn鈥檛 be the case.

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White

So, you鈥檝e lost confidence, have you?听 It sounds as if you were probably quite a confident traveller.

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Smith

I think I still am a confident traveller and it takes quite a lot to knock me back but you know I鈥檝e walked into the back of a truck before, I鈥檝e walked into the back of an open boot before.听 Every time it鈥檚 where your cane is on the ground and it鈥檚 detecting stuff on the floor and your face detects the stuff higher up.听 But it does knock your confidence, it certainly does and it would quite easily put people off going out on their own.

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White

Dave Smith, Mike Bell 鈥� thank you both very much for coming on.

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Just to say, as for Wales and Northern Ireland, well Wales a consultation was proposed for 2023, it鈥檚 now been postponed until this year.听 Northern Ireland has conducted a consultation, they鈥檙e waiting for a minister to be in place to make a decision based on its findings.

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And that鈥檚 it for today.听 As for next week though, we鈥檇 like to hear in this election year from any visually impaired people thinking of standing, for whatever party, in the inevitable General Election.听 Do let us know if you鈥檙e running or you know of someone else who鈥檚 considering it.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk or leave a voice message on 0161 8361338 or visit our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Carwyn Griffith and Simon Highfield, goodbye.

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