±«Óãtv

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ±«Óãtv CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Attitudes and Service

TX:Ìý 23.05.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý It’s a couple of months ago now since we raised the question on the programme: Is life becoming easier or harder if you’re visually impaired?Ìý Well, it was clear from the strength and number of your responses that we’d struck a chord and indeed, we’ve broadcast quite a lot of those responses since.Ìý But you also made it clear how much we’d had to leave out.Ìý So, we’ve decided to return to the subject and try to pick up some of the points you say we missed.

Ìý

Inevitably, we spent quite a lot of time debating the effects of technological advance and the fact that since then the whole world is seeming to be debating the pros and cons of artificial intelligence, suggests that we got the zeitgeist right – everyone seems to be puzzling about whether more technology will be able to give us much more information more quickly or will it make it less and less easy to get help from a real human being.Ìý And for blind and partially sighted people it’s often the real human being you need in trying to navigate your day-to-day life.

Ìý

Well, we did touch on it in that last programme but time meant we had to leave it out, so we’re returning to it today and one of our guests then – Roshni Hafeez – set out the problem as she saw it very neatly.

Ìý

Hafeez

During the pandemic we largely became invisible because the country was working from home because we weren’t able to social distance in the same way, so we have been, to quote a popular turn of phrase, out of sight, out of mind.Ìý Thinking back, also, to the technology issues, that you’ve just been speaking about, there is a kind of nuanced argument there too because technology is still intrinsically linked, for our community anyway, to employment, education or training and if you’re not in any of those you potentially don’t have the technology and that then bars you from integrating with society and adds to that air of invisibility, I think.Ìý I have a branch of my local supermarket next to where I work, I often go in there to buy lunch and I get a kind of weird reaction when I ask for assistance.Ìý In fact, somebody once said to me – Why didn’t you send someone else to pick up the food for you?Ìý Why would I do that?Ìý Why should I do that?Ìý But there is this air of we’re not seen and therefore the awareness has declined.

Ìý

White

The trouble is it’s a vicious circle, isn’t it, if they don’t get used to seeing us, we’re put off going out and they’ll see even less of us.

Ìý

Mike, I know you were very mobile in your working days, what’s your attitude to this?

Ìý

Lambert

It’s very hard to say overall, it’s hard to measure attitudes.Ìý I still get some blistering stupid things said to me, sort of things like, people will help me and say – Well, there’s my good deed for the day.Ìý I don’t end up feeling very hopeful about it.

Ìý

White

That was former university lecturer Mike Lambert there and before that, Roshni Hafeez, a VAT specialist with HMRC.Ìý

Ìý

Well, we’ve asked Roshni to return and she’s joined today by two new guests – Gavin Griffiths, who’s a freelance access consultant and Richard Lane, who, in his time, has worked for just about every major organisation dealing with visual impairment, although he’s taking a rest from that and is teaching wine appreciation at London’s Wine and Spirit Education Trust.

Ìý

Let’s get your reactions first to Roshni’s points.Ìý Gavin, did we become invisible over covid, do you think?

Ìý

Griffiths

Definitely.Ìý And it certainly heads back to 2012 when the whole country was on its highest plane probably.Ìý At the time, working for RNIB in their leisure services, we dealt all the way through, from start to finish, with the Olympics and the surrounding Paralympics to make it fully accessible for blind and partially sighted people.Ìý And, at the time, the public were all over that as well – you know, stopping, letting people get in lifts first, whole queues would move aside.Ìý But within 12 months of that we were back to the usual kind of thing – elbow in the chest if you tried to get past someone, what are you doing getting to the front of this queue, who do you think you are.Ìý So, quite quickly, the public reverted to their – I’ve got to get there first and you’re second, whoever you are, kind of attitude.

Ìý

White

Okay, so peaks and troughs.Ìý Let me bring in Richard.Ìý Allowing for Mike Lambert’s point that helpfulness is very hard to measure, what’s your take on all this and what you’ve heard so far?

Ìý

Lane

Well, I would just stress the – how do you measure it point.Ìý The real answer is – how can we possibly know.Ìý I don’t think we can.

Ìý

White

What’s your own experience then?Ìý If you’re going to ruin my programme by saying we can’t get a decent answer, let me throw it at you that way.Ìý What’s happened to you?

Ìý

Lane

Well, I think, to be honest, Peter, I’d say over the past 32 years, since I became blind in my mid-20s, I’ve, like many people, there have been some good moments in terms of getting assistance and help, some real highlights and some less good moments.Ìý And, to be honest, to me, it’s not a case of are things better or are they worse but how do you deal with it and what are the strategies for dealing with it?

Ìý

Certainly, when it came to technology and hearing about sort of touchscreens and they’re totally inaccessible, they’re totally useless, nightmare…

Ìý

White

Came across one yesterday, I was outraged.

Ìý

Lane

Yes.Ìý Well, agreed but the way I deal with that is, do you know what, I can’t use that at all, it’s not even a case of me being able to use it a bit and not very well, I just can’t use it.Ìý So, it’s not part of my life, I don’t even think about it.Ìý And if I can’t buy a train ticket I’ll just get on the train and if someone comes round to me on the train I’ll pay for a ticket then, end of story, I don’t worry about it.

Ìý

White

Well, I want to bring Roshni back.Ìý Perhaps we ought to make the distinction anyway clear here that there are two levels or types of help.Ìý There’s formal help – the help perhaps that we think we ought to be able to rely on from people in the service industry; shops, which you’ve mentioned; public services.Ìý But then there’s what you might call more casual help – the help we all need from time to time just from passing strangers.Ìý Did your views apply to both?

Ìý

Hafeez

Yes.Ìý What covid did was two things.Ìý First of all, it very obviously added to that invisibility but when we then started re-emerging into this new normal, as people refer to it, it kind of gave companies an air of legitimacy to say – we can’t provide x, y, z support because we’re still in covid special measures and we’re being expected to do much more with much less, in terms of resourcing.Ìý And I completely agree with what Richard’s saying about we have to develop strategies and resilience, so we absolutely do and I think that’s integrated into the core fabric of how most of us function day-to-day and operate.Ìý But I think the issue is perhaps the collective impact of that over a period of time, particularly on somebody’s who’s newly lost their sight.

Ìý

White

Just before I throw that to the others, I think – am I right – you’ve been trying to learn to swim recently, where that’s been a factor?

Ìý

Hafeez

Yeah, I would like to but I’m constantly being told no by swim schools and sometimes they have genuine reasons for saying no, because they don’t have the staff or they don’t have the time slots available in the pool that fit with my work schedule.Ìý But other times, it’s just like no, just no because of covid and stuff.Ìý And that’s what I mean about it – I think it becoming easier for them to be able to do that in the current climate.

Ìý

White

The issue there, I suppose, is, is this still happening.Ìý You say people said it at the end of lockdown or one of the many lockdowns that we had, are they still doing it?Ìý I mean Gavin, I think you have a particular issue with what’s happening in the NHS, for example.

Ìý

Griffiths

Yeah, I mean the NHS, for a long time now, have had a policy in place whereby any patient who’s disabled is supposed to be able to get all of their documentation, if asked for, in a format that they require.Ìý That, in practice, however, is virtually impossible unless you are stubborn and keep on at them, at them, at them.Ìý Being blind almost all of my life bar a year and a half, I’ve learned to deal with that kind of situation and fight and bring down those barriers.Ìý But someone who’s lost their sight in later years may not have the confidence because the infrastructure that we had, as children, to bring us through education and show us how to deal with the sighted world, is very much not there anymore.

Ìý

White

And going back, if you like, to casual help.Ìý I thought Mike Lambert made an interesting point there about help from passing strangers, you know, people saying – well, I’ve done my good turn for the day.Ìý What he seemed to be saying – do we have to live in a permanent state of gratitude to people who help us or could it be regarded as something that you should be able to expect in a civilised country?Ìý What’s your attitude to that?Ìý How much is it about strategies, as Richard is saying, how much you are good at coping with it?

Ìý

Griffiths

I’m very much of a battler, if someone says I can’t do something, I often want to go out and will go out and prove that it’s completely the other way round.Ìý And in that kind of sense, I will carry on looking for help, even if someone, as often happens, refuses me in the street.Ìý But I mean, of course, I’m grateful to the people who’ve helped me and there’s many lovely people who’ve stopped and helped eventually.Ìý But, overall, I think we should expect it.Ìý As a basic human being I expect to be treated like anybody else but at the point where somebody should refuse me help and somebody stops them, for example, and they’ve said – Why didn’t you help that guy – and they said – I didn’t know what to say.Ìý Well, sorry, but if you’ve got past education of any kind, and you’ve got past the age of certainly 21, and you don’t know how to say to someone – sorry, I can’t help – or – yes, the post office is just over here – then there’s something sadly wrong with today’s community.

Ìý

White

Well, I was going to say, is the thing that’s wrong that people are being told that there’s a right way and wrong way to do this kind of thing because organisations that say – this is the way you do it – are being totally misleading because it depends – each individual has preferences, some people like to be touched, some people don’t want to be touched.Ìý Richard, you’ve worked for all these organisations, would you not…

Ìý

Lane

Yeah, long time ago now, but yeah, yeah, but no, yeah, but you’re right there are clearly no hard and fast rules and it has to be down to the individual.Ìý I think once we start going down the road of everything being prescriptive, then that really worries me.Ìý I mean I realise this puts the onus on the individual and some individuals will therefore find it harder.Ìý A lot of it is to do with the communication, it’s just your ability to be personable.Ìý Of course, you just thank you, that’s great, that’s just common courtesy.Ìý I mean I’ve had help from little old ladies who were sighted but who can’t carry their suitcases, so I carry their suitcases while they guide me, you know what I mean, it’s totally fine, we say – well, we were a good team, weren’t we, bye, nice to meet you.

Ìý

White

Haven’t you more or less been picked up on occasions, you know?

Ìý

Lane

Well, I couldn’t comment about that, Peter.

Ìý

White

I don’t mean picked up in that sense, I mean physically…

Ìý

Lane

Oh sorry, you mean, sorry…

Ìý

White

…physically picked up.

Ìý

Lane

Sorry, Peter, I thought you were referring to something else, silly me.Ìý Yeah, wonderful early occasion, early on in my blind life, and I was waiting for a friend, just quietly with my white cane, pre-guide dog era and the next thing I knew I was sort of being carried like a carpet across the road and I was just planted down on the other side of the road and this giant just walked off.Ìý He had, obviously, thought he had done his good deed for the day.Ìý Of course, things go really wrong – I’ve called out for help sometimes, haven’t got it – of course, all these difficult things can happen.Ìý Buy my overwhelming, and I had 30 odd years perception, is if you can communicate effectively with people, goodness me, the public out there are generally, I’d say, pretty good, pretty helpful…

Ìý

White

Let me put another point to all of you.Ìý I wonder how much this is a British… I mean Roshni, you’ve lived in a number of places, do you think there is an element this is partly something about our perhaps reluctance to be too forward in this country?

Ìý

Hafeez

I think there is a bit of that.Ìý I mean I, obviously being in Scotland, I’m naturally hugely biased and I think we are the most friendly country in the world and people are always stopping me in the city centre and offering help.Ìý And I second what Gavin and Richard have said – absolutely grateful for that.Ìý But I do think that we live in a society now that’s plagued by cancel culture and social media and stuff and I think that has made it much harder for people to feel comfortable approaching.Ìý Recently, I’ve had a few near misses walking across the road with cars coming right up next to me, which is pretty scary for us when you have no sight.Ìý But I’ve also had people shout out of car windows at me, that – can’t you look where you’re going – and it’s like – well, clearly not which is why the cane’s there.Ìý But, again, I would say, I really don’t believe that that’s people being nasty or difficult, I think it does come down to just not understanding what the cane’s for and emphasised by the fact that we’ve been invisible or hidden for so long.

Ìý

White

Always good to have the dog’s view as well.Ìý

Ìý

Hafeez

Apparently strongly agreeing with me.

Ìý

Griffiths

One second, I’ve just got to answer a door, sorry. [Chatter]

Ìý

White

Let’s just wait for Gavin to get his delivery. [Door shutting]

Ìý

Griffiths

Always the way.

Ìý

White

Was that a helpful man delivering you in a visually impaired friendly fashion?

Ìý

Griffiths

That was, actually, a very helpful parcel man, happy to hand the parcel to me and talk to me direct, rather than leaving it on the doorstep, running as far away as they possibly can.

Ìý

White

Well, there you are, we’ve had some live…

Ìý

Griffiths

Which is the norm.

Ìý

White

…live action in the programme.Ìý I think you’ve just come back from holiday, so where were you and what were the differences?

Ìý

Griffiths

Yeah, we’ve just returned from Tenerife and I’ve experienced there what I’ve experienced in Turkey, in Portugal, in Spain and America, when I went to Florida, which was I find these countries much more open to approaching you personably.Ìý For example, we went on a boat trip, this holiday, where we just booked on at the little hole in the wall down near the harbour in Los Gigantes, Tenerife, paid our money, there was no questions about two of us having sticks.Ìý And when we got to the boat, it wasn’t a really difficult climb down but it had no handrails and stuff, it was just some wide steps, couple of guys at the top, who when they saw myself and my wife, gently took our wrists and before we knew it, we were on the boat without a single problem.Ìý Where come here, that would have been the case of – no, you can’t go on.Ìý You know, I’ve had that where people say [indistinct words] – have you got someone with you?Ìý Well, clearly not or else I wouldn’t be here with my stick.Ìý And they go – Well, sorry, you can’t go.

Ìý

White

And yet, Richard, I think you’ve got a slightly different take on what happens in other countries.

Ìý

Lane

Yeah, I mean, not on exactly on Gavin’s point.Ìý I’m based in the UK but I lived in France for a year and I’ve been to the States a lot with work and always come home, to the UK, and I’m just completely constantly blown away by how good the staff training is in the transport networks and the system here, in terms of knowing how to treat you, greet you, call ahead with… using the technology, the meet and greet system.Ìý Okay, I’m just in London, in the southeast at the moment, but I never even worry about using the transport system because I know the training and support of the staff is so good.Ìý When I went to New York and I asked for some assistance from the guy behind a glass booth, he kind of went – What!Ìý He just couldn’t believe I was even asking the question to get some help – Of course not, we haven’t got any staff.

Ìý

White

Right, I would put…

Ìý

Griffiths

I find that really strange though because in the last couple of years, certainly at the end of lockdown and sort of a little bit before we came out of lockdown, I was helping at the time East Midlands Trains, I think it was, as they were called then, to put together their side of the new passenger assistance app and that, for a while, worked superbly.Ìý I don’t know whether you found this all over the country but certainly here around Nottingham, Derbyshire, what the train companies are now doing is handing off their assistance to a third party and some of the training – well, it’s virtually non-existent, these guys don’t know where to take you, they don’t know how to talk to you, even though you’re polite and sensible.Ìý Some of the third-party companies that are out there are absolutely appalling.Ìý I prefer to actually rock up and actually just ask for help at the gate, you get better assistance that way than you do through this specific app, that was set up specifically for this job.

Ìý

White

I think we’ve just had another illustration of just how subjective this is.

Ìý

Lane

And patchy the provision is.

Ìý

White

And patchy.Ìý Let me put in a word for London Underground.Ìý I mean I don’t live in London – I’ve never lived in London but London Underground assistance is second to none.Ìý People are always talking about how, you know – you go to London as a blind person!Ìý Frankly, I’ve found nowhere better, not just for that kind of organised help but also, casual help is so good in London.Ìý And one of the reasons it’s good, is because they’re in a hurry, they haven’t got time to stand and watch you as you walk away from them and then come back and say – Are you sure you’re alright?Ìý That doesn’t happen in London.

Ìý

Roshni, you raised the question of invisibility, what have you taken from this discussion?

Ìý

Hafeez

I would agree with everybody really that it’s a massively nuanced subject but I think we’ve all agreed with the irregular nature of what’s available around the country and indeed around the world.Ìý And, I guess, from that point of view, it comes back to a point that Richard made earlier around, well, when you can’t control the externals fully, what is it that you can do.Ìý And I think there are bigger pieces of work for us to do around how we organise, as a collective.Ìý There’s a whole other discussion which we will not have to do here around whether visually impaired organisations are fulfilling that in the way that we used to.Ìý But I think there is more work to be done there because most of us have grown up with the medical model of disability and so on and how that impacts on how we’re seen today.Ìý But then, also, what can we do as individuals around building up our own resilience and our response to things.Ìý And I guess it’s kind of a two-pronged attack around how you tackle the invisibility and make it better.

Ìý

White

We’re going to leave it there.Ìý I hope and expect that this is only the beginning of the debate and, as always, we want to hear what you think.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave voicemails on 0161 8361338.Ìý You can go to our website, if you’re able, bbc.co.uk/intouch, from where you can also download tonight’s and previous editions of the programme.Ìý Many thanks to Gavin Griffiths, Richard Lane and Roshni Hafeez.Ìý From them, from me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Jonathan Esp, goodbye.

Ìý