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IN TOUCH 鈥� Your Questions Answered

TX:听 23.11.2021听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, your questions answered 鈥� everything from why TV news often doesn鈥檛 provide voice translations of contributors speaking in a foreign language to the state of the lighting at the British Museum, with a complaint about talking TV programme guides or rather the lack of them along the way.

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Now, this first unanswered question is directed at us, here at the 鲍鱼tv.听 It came into our inbox following our criticisms of Channel 4 after the fire which meant no audio description from them for several weeks.听 But we鈥檝e basically been accused of being the pot calling the kettle black.听 Keith Wells says: 鈥淭he 鲍鱼tv continues to show a total lack of consideration with regard to its blind and partially sighted viewers on its 10.00 pm broadcasts by not including English translations when reporting from Afghanistan.听 This has occurred on many occasions over the last few months.鈥�

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And in fact, here鈥檚 an example of exactly what Keith means.听 This went out on 鲍鱼tv News just a couple of weeks ago.

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鲍鱼tv News clip

Reporter

The pick-up trucks just keep coming, from here it鈥檚 a seven-hour journey, through the desert to Pakistan.听

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There are whole families here too.听

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Aren鈥檛 you worried about going with all these young children?

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Afghan speaker

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Reporter

At times it feels as if the whole of Afghanistan is trying to find a way out.

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White

Well, I鈥檓 joined by the Executive News Editor of the 6 and 10 o鈥檆lock programmes 鈥� Paul Royall.

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Paul, I鈥檓 sure I don鈥檛 have to tell you just how exasperating that is for a visually impaired person who can鈥檛 read the subtitles.

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Royall

We totally understand that and I just want to reassure listeners, at the beginning of all of this, that 鲍鱼tv News, it should and should always be available and accessible to all 鈥� that鈥檚 a fundamental thing.听 And so, in terms of Keith鈥檚 contact with you, I鈥檓 grateful for listeners and viewers raising this issue.

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White

But Paul, this isn鈥檛 a new complaint, indeed In Touch, in the past, has had assurances that this would be given more consideration, so why is it still happening?

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Royall

I think there鈥檚 something particularly around the Afghanistan story and I鈥檒l try and explain why.听 Which is there is something in the editorial guidelines around allowing to have subtitles and hear the foreign language voice, particularly in incidents where you鈥檙e trying to sort of fully convey the emotion of the voice and the situation.听 It is quite specific around this particular story.听 It鈥檚 because of the intensity of what happened.听 I think, actually, the balance now has got out of kilter and we are addressing it and we have spoken to teams.

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White

Yeah because it鈥檚 all very well to say that you want all your viewers to hear the emotion but what you鈥檙e actually achieving is that some of your viewers aren鈥檛 hearing anything at all that they can understand.

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Royall

Yeah and I think this is an interesting point.听 And the conversations we鈥檝e had inside 鲍鱼tv News have come up with some sort of, in the short-term at least, some potential ways ahead.听 And so, for example, is there a way in which we hear more of the foreign language voice to begin with before then bringing in the English translation into it and so that everyone can get a sense of that emotion.

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White

Well, I was going to play this at the end of our interview but as you鈥檝e raised it, we鈥檝e had a go at doing exactly what you鈥檙e saying should be attempted because we thought we needed to show you how to do it.听 So, what about this?

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鲍鱼tv News clip

Reporter

The pick-up trucks just keep coming.听 From here it鈥檚 a seven-hour journey through the desert to Pakistan.

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There are whole families here too.

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Aren鈥檛 you worried about going with all these young children?

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Afghan speaker translated

We have no choice, there is no work.听 My husband used to work for the government.听 I used to be a teacher in a school in Kabul.听 I haven鈥檛 had my salary for the last two or three months from the government.听 I was helpless, what can I give my children to eat?

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Reporter

At times it feels as if the whole of Afghanistan is trying to find a way out.

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White

So, that was our attempt at it.听 I can see that we could have let it run a little longer with the genuine voice in Afghanistan but you see what we were trying to do?

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Royall

Yeah, absolutely, and, again, just to sort of reassure listeners and people who鈥檝e got in touch, these are the sort of conversations we鈥檝e been having since this issue sort of re-emerged at the summer.听 And I think you鈥檙e right 鈥� I think you鈥檇 let it run longer, programme teams and producers would just have to allow the pieces to be slightly longer to reflect all of that.听 But I think it鈥檚 a good example of how we could move forward in a way which works for everyone.听 Hopefully, one day, across the 鲍鱼tv, there鈥檒l be technological solutions to all aspects of accessing our content and our coverage but I think in the sort of short to medium term this sort of thing could be a way forward.听 One other aspect that I鈥檇 like to bring in, and I鈥檓 sure you鈥檙e aware of this as well, which is obviously with digital platforms and in the sort of digital information age and with the rise of Netflix and the sort of tendency for subtitling and for perhaps, surprisingly, audiences, and particularly younger audiences, to be happy with subtitles, I think there鈥檚 a greater tendency amongst producers and teams to sort of see subtitling as a way which works without necessarily remembering that this isn鈥檛 the case right across the audience spectrum.

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White

Well, doing this is a way of perhaps, hopefully, reminding them that you are missing out a chunk of your audience.

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Just, while we鈥檝e got you there, Paul.听 On the subject of audio description, I mean we appreciate that there are problems with audio describing news generally because of its immediacy but has any thought been given, at least, to audio describing longer pre-prepared news reports, more like the mini features which 鲍鱼tv News sometimes does?

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Royall

Yeah, absolutely.听 We鈥檙e not there yet but it is something we鈥檝e discussed over the last year or two.听 Could we get to a place where those pieces could come with audio description?听 I mean, Peter, you know the news business, even the stuff that we think is going to be pre-prepared quite often still doesn鈥檛 make it into the building until quite late in the day.听 But, again, I think these are exactly the sort of things, along with the stuff we were talking about earlier, we should go some way to mitigate some of these issues because it is often the longer premade foreign films where this is an issue which obviously crops up.

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White

Well, Paul Royall, thank you very much indeed.听 Keith and the rest of us will be watching to see if there鈥檚 a change in this.听 Paul Royall, thanks very much.

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And we stay with access to television programmes.听 Now when we had the Communications Regulator of Ofcom on the programme a few weeks back, they said that they expected major TV platforms to be able to provide talking electronic programme guides to give visually impaired people information about upcoming programmes in a form that they could use.听 But one of our listeners says that Virgin Media鈥檚 EPG on its latest set-top box still doesn鈥檛 do this.听 Describing the conversations he鈥檚 had with Virgin Media, Colin Lamont, emailed:

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Lamont

They say that it does have a voice activated remote control that I can use to change channels.听 This is not what I and other blind customers are asking for.听 When I asked them for a number to complain to, they told me to call 150 which just puts me to their call centre, where nobody knows what I鈥檓 talking about because they鈥檙e all just trained to read off a script.听 If I do demand to make a complaint, I鈥檓 put through to somebody else who says they鈥檙e very sorry I鈥檓 having these problems and they鈥檒l look into it.听 I鈥檓 hoping you can actually talk to somebody from Virgin Media who鈥檚 higher up and can tell us when the talking EPG will be put in place.

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White

Well, Colin, will their Chief TV and Entertainment Officer for Virgin Media O2 do?听 I do hope so because David Bouchier is here.听 So, let鈥檚 hope he鈥檚 higher enough for you.

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David, Virgin Media has been promising this for a couple of years now, why hasn鈥檛 Colin got what he wants yet?

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Bouchier

First of all, I鈥檇 like to apologise to Mr Lamont for his experience.听 It seems that the agent that he spoke to may have confused our voice search and control feature, which is available on our TV 360 remote control through a voice activated microphone button with the text to voice control for a speech enabled accessible user interface.

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White

So, can we explain exactly what Colin can now get on your latest piece of equipment, your latest EPG?

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Bouchier

So, what we have on our new generation TV 360 box is a high contrast option for the user interface and this allows users to switch the screen so that the colours are much more clearly discernible.听 The second thing that we do is we highlight those programmes that contain subtitles as well as audio described programming and this appears on the user interface and is clearly marked.听 So, as recently as last month, we also included a zoom TV guide, which is channel 555, for those who have a TV 360 box, and that provides a much enhanced version of the TV guide and has specifically enlarged elements and text.听 In addition, from the launch of our TV 360 box, we鈥檝e also had text to speech capability but we do it via our TV Go app.听 Now that Go app is available for both IOS and Android devices.听 And the way that it works is it uses the native voice to speech capability of both IOS and Android and you鈥檙e able to have a text to speech complete user interface together with a text to speech remote control that will then control the box directly.听 So, although the user interface currently on our boxes does not have text to speech, the app does which has the same functionality.

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White

But I mean a. that still sounds quite complicated and b. you still need another element in order to use it don鈥檛 you?

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Bouchier

Yes, it鈥檚 because it鈥檚 not the situation we would like, we were hoping to have the new text to speech user interface available this calendar year but, unfortunately, we鈥檝e been slightly delayed in the development.听 I am pleased to say that it is now in test, so we are testing it with a number of customers this month, and, as you鈥檒l appreciate, of all the developments that we are doing for the accessibility of our user interface, the text to speech is actually one of the most complicated.听 And for that reason, we鈥檝e got to get it right and we need to get it right first time and we apologise that it hasn鈥檛 arrived in the time run we would have liked but we have the intention that it should appear in the first quarter of next year.

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White

But other UK platforms have got to text to speech on their EPGs, that are giving programme scheduling information.听 Also, I understand, that this has been available in the States since about 2016, so why not you?

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Bouchier

As you can imagine set-top box technology is an international business, we don鈥檛 have a dedicated box that is made just for us.听 So, we have an international product that we then define additional features in order to have it suitable for the UK market.听 We only launched the product from February this year to new customers, so we had hoped to get it in within the calendar, as I say we may be up to three months late鈥︹��[indistinct]

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White

And we have been talking to Ofcom about this and they鈥檙e not that happy with you:

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Ofcom statement

Virgin assured us that they planned to implement all of the required accessibility features in their new Horizon 360 box but they, disappointingly, did not commit to a definitive timeframe.听 Virgin, like all other EPG providers, has a deadline to submit its annual accessibility report to us by the end of November and we are due to report on the industry鈥檚 progress in the spring of next year.听 But on account of your listener鈥檚 experience and understandable frustrations we鈥檝e been in touch with the company to ask it to provide a more immediate update on its progress.

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So, they were asking for something by the end of November, are you going to be able to do that, is that more or less what you鈥檝e told us here, that this should be ready in the first three months of next year?

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Bouchier

Yes, we will be reporting that we鈥檙e now in test with the feature and we are committed to seeing this launch in the first quarter of next year.

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White

Colin, I hope, will be pleased to hear that.听 David Bouchier, thank you very much.

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And now, from pictures on a TV screen to pictures in a gallery.听 We鈥檝e had this from Brian Snowdon:

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Snowdon

I鈥檓 visually impaired and I love museums.听 I鈥檝e been disappointed that the British Museum鈥檚 last two exhibitions 鈥� Nero and Thomas Becket 鈥� have been so dark that I struggled to get round them as I鈥檓 worried about bumping into an object or another guest.听 I鈥檓 a member, so I suggested to the British Museum that they might think about some better light sessions for visually impaired members, acknowledging that, of course, some exhibits have to be in low light.

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White

And Brain went on to say this was the response he had: 鈥淲e appreciate your feedback on temporary exhibitions accessibility and propose to use this feedback to inform the design of future exhibitions.听 Unfortunately, the lighting that we currently use isn鈥檛 adjustable, either on or off, but we can look at this possibility for future events.听 We do run audio described tours both online and on site for visually impaired visitors.鈥�

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Well, Brian told us he didn鈥檛 think that was really good enough and could we look into it.听 So, we did invite someone from the museum on to the programme to discuss this.听 They told us no one was available in our timescale 鈥� 10 days鈥� notice 鈥� but instead we鈥檙e going to talk to a lighting expert about the kind of things which could be done to help visually impaired people in this situation.听 Ajay Vasdev is the founding director of Asco Lights and they have worked with businesses to install lighting that works for visually impaired and amongst those have been museums and galleries.

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Ajay, first of all, can I just first quote you what the British Museum did tell us in quite a long email?听 They said: 鈥淲e set gallery lighting very much for a visitor experience in mind, however, this must also be balanced with conservation requirements, many of the objects in our exhibitions are on loan from other museums and collections from around the globe, we have to comply with lender guidelines on lighting levels, particularly for those objects for which excessive light exposure is a risk.鈥澨� That鈥檚 a legitimate point isn鈥檛 it, I mean that鈥檚 something a museum would have to worry about?

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Vasdev

Yeah, I think it鈥檚 quite a valid point that they put forward there.听 I think as an industry or as an environment I think the museums are probably the worst-case scenario when it comes to looking at those with visual impairments but, generally, the brief that centres around sort of museums is looking about creating light, shadows, textures and their whole emphasis is all about sort of lighting those objects and paintings.

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White

What kind of lighting technology exists on the market right now, that would help visually impaired people, but perhaps some that the British Museum could consider?

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Vasdev

Typically, what we would be looking at doing, is to look at sort of more specific lighting which would be low level marker lighting, lighting that can be used to sort of be more intelligent.听 There鈥檚 one technology which I鈥檓 not too sure if your readers have heard of or your listeners have heard of called yellow dot technology.听 So, this is typically where you probably see this being used at the moment where we鈥檝e got headphones and we鈥檝e got the sort of interactive experience where we鈥檝e got audio feedback.听 But what we can do with this particular technology, we can add an app to this where the app would recognise that that person is visually impaired and as they鈥檙e walking around specific areas of that museum the light levels would automatically be ramped up or sort of low-level lighting would come on automatically, so making that experience much more pleasing for those people.听 So, we鈥檝e entered into a room moving from one space to another, automatically that triggers on a certain luminaire.

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White

Of course, funding these kinds of technologies is presumably down to the business themselves, from your experience, have businesses been prepared to fork out for this kind of thing in the past?

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Vasdev

I鈥檒l be really honest with you, not yet.听 The technology鈥檚 out there but I think what they鈥檝e got to do is to raise the awareness initially and, obviously, get involved in this which would make the whole experience so much better.

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White

Just to be absolutely clear, this wouldn鈥檛 have the kind of worrying effects that the museum quoted about dangers to their pictures?

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Vasdev

No, because what we鈥檙e really focusing upon here is sort of walkway lighting, we鈥檙e not going to deteriorate what鈥檚 on display, we鈥檙e looking secondary lighting in and around sort of from walking from one space to another, as it was.听 So, we can get round that quite easily.

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White

Okay.听 Ajay Vasdev thank you very much for coming on.

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Well, too many complaints about one thing and another to fit them all in this programme, so we鈥檒l try to squeeze in some more in the weeks to come.听 When we also hope to meet a blind mayor 鈥� you鈥檝e heard that before?听 What about two in the same household?

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You can email In Touch with your comments on anything you鈥檝e heard in the programme 鈥� intouch@bbc.co.uk.听 You can leave your voicemails on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.听 From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Richard Hannaford and David Crackles, goodbye.