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IN TOUCH 鈥� Covid Restrictions: Care 鲍鱼tvs and London Underground

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TX:听 17.11.2020听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 MIKE YOUNG

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White

Good evening.听 It鈥檚 fair to say that our programme title has never been more appropriate than over the past few months.听 Many of you were very quick to point out that visually impaired people鈥檚 need to experience the world by touching was going to cause some very knotty problems in the face of coronavirus restrictions and you were quite right.听 So, tonight, we鈥檒l be trying to find out why visually impaired listeners are telling us that they鈥檙e being refused physical assistance on the London Underground.

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Clip

If I鈥檓 wearing a mask and a member of staff is wearing a mask and if I sanitise my hands, if I take their elbow, I absolutely don鈥檛 see any risk.

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White

We鈥檒l be asking Transport for London why this is happening on the Tube when other rail operators are offering physical guidance.

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And nowhere has lack of physical contact been more heart-breaking than with the restrictions placed on people wanting to visit sick or dependent relatives in hospitals and residential care homes, especially those nearing the end of life.听 There have been many painful stories and it now looks as if there are some serious attempts being made to introduce more flexibility, including piloting on-site testing for visitors in residential care homes.听 But this has all come too late to help In Touch listener Peter Wilkins and his wife, Linda.听 Both totally blind they鈥檝e been happily married for 47 years but when Linda had to go into hospital, earlier this year, at the start of pandemic 鈥� not with coronavirus 鈥� the timing could not have been worse.

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Peter has been telling me about Linda and their life together.

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Wilkins

We met in 1963 at secondary school, went to college together, courted for a couple of years 鈥� Lancashire versus Yorkshire 鈥� and then we married in 1973.听 Eventually Linda got a job as a braille proof reader at the National Library for the Blind, which was in Manchester at the time, and I worked there as a typist.听 She was very kind, very gentle, I鈥檇 never known her harm anyone and it鈥檚 just a pity that her last few years were dogged with medical problems, which eventually made it that she couldn鈥檛 walk and her memory began to fade in the last three months as well.

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White

And as Linda became ill how much did she come to rely on you?

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Wilkins

After March this year, when she couldn鈥檛 walk, I did nearly everything for her.听 She could dress herself, she could wash herself but everything else had to be done by me.

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White

Now Linda first went into hospital, I think, and then a care home.听 So, during this year, with pandemic restrictions, how much could you see her?

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Wilkins

When she went into hospital at the end of July and she died 21st October, I only got the chance to see her in a nursing home just before our wedding anniversary, which was in August, because she was having problems with the telephone 鈥� she couldn鈥檛 remember how to use her phone and the staff couldn鈥檛 use it because it had no screen, it was a specific phone for blind people.听 So, I went in and had a look at the situation, found the wi-fi and the mobile phone signal were no good on the ground floor.听 So, they kindly moved her up to the first floor, where there was a wi-fi signal.听 And then the following Tuesday, which was our 47th wedding anniversary, they let me in to see her for an hour and I was able to sort out the communications problem.

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White

But just generally, how difficult was it 鈥� you must have had a sense over this period when you weren鈥檛 able to see her that there were probably quite a lot of things that you would want to help her with.

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Wilkins

That鈥檚 right, yes, and I could ring the hospital or nursing home or care home and they鈥檇 say she was okay and I鈥檇 find out the next day that she hadn鈥檛 been, somebody had not told me something.听 Because I couldn鈥檛 get to Linda, I didn鈥檛 know whether she did have any problems or not and couldn鈥檛 do anything about it if she did.

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White

Just explain, because there was an opportunity to see her in the end, explain the conditions under which you were able to be with her.

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Wilkins

I went into the nursing home two months before she died and I had to put on a polythene apron and some gloves, which were useless because as soon as I put my fingers in they went through the ends anyway 鈥� very thin, rubber gloves.听 I wasn鈥檛 able to get close to Linda, I was about four feet away sitting in a chair and she was lying in her bed.听 We could just speak to each other.听

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White

I鈥檓 really trying to get this picture because, as a blind person myself and you are and Linda was, can you just explain the frustration of that 鈥� it would be frustrating for any couple but for two blind people touch is so important isn鈥檛 it.

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Wilkins

Yeah.听 She asked me, when I went to see her in August, the last time I saw her, she asked me if I could give her a kiss and I said 鈥� I鈥檓 not allowed to because of the virus.听 I wasn鈥檛 allowed to hold her hand or anything, it was just talking.听 But I didn鈥檛 know that when I left her on that morning that it would be the last time I would be with her.

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White

Did staff understand that for two people who couldn鈥檛 see each other, having a form of contact was crucial in a way?

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Wilkins

The nursing home where she died were excellent and that鈥檚 why they let me in on that particular day, to help with her communications and to be with her on our special day.听 But the previous care home and the hospital, I鈥檓 sorry, but I don鈥檛 think they had any understanding at all.听 I was losing quality time, I wanted to say things and hold her hand, give her a kiss or something, you know, and it just wasn鈥檛 there 鈥� wasn鈥檛 allowed to do it.听 And, as I say, at the time when she asked me and I couldn鈥檛, I didn鈥檛 realise that would be the last time I鈥檇 see her.

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White

No, you must feel terrible about that really.

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Wilkins

I do, I can鈥檛 put it back.

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White

Peter, you were offered things such as, I think, window visits by the care home, what was your reaction to that?

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Wilkins

Well I have to say, that window visits 鈥� two reasons weren鈥檛 acceptable.听 One is that she was on the first floor, so that wouldn鈥檛 be very good and the other because we鈥檙e both blind and she wouldn鈥檛 hear me through the window, so it seemed to me it was not worth having.听 That鈥檚 why I was pleased when they moved her up to the first floor because at least we had some form of telephone contact.

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White

Now obviously you appreciate why these restrictions have been in place, you must have raised these issues several times with people, I just wonder what kind of reaction you got and whether you think the special circumstances that you were in were appreciated by people.

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Wilkins

I think they were by the nursing home, when I went to see her in August, on our wedding anniversary, I think they were sensitive to that, which is why they chose that day for me to go back in 鈥� they asked me to go back in, I didn鈥檛 ask them.听 We discussed it but they were tied with the regulations, they couldn鈥檛 do anything else for me.

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White

Now although Linda was ill her death, I believe, I was unexpected.听 Had you and the care home known, do you think things might have been different?

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Wilkins

I know that the care home subsequently said to me that had they known she was nearing the end of life they would have invited me in.

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White

Now as we record this interview there does seem to be some movement, serious thought being given to ways of making it easier for people to have more regular contact with relatives in hospital, what do you think about what you鈥檝e heard so far and what would work for people like you and Linda?

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Wilkins

Well if they have these screens, floor to ceiling screens, I don鈥檛 know whether they transmit sound.听 If they didn鈥檛 then a hard-line phone connection would be good and I would be on one side of the screen, Linda would be on the other and I would prefer that to having nothing at all.听 I felt that as people were going in and out of her room, dressed in the PPE looking after her, if I had the right PPE on, whatever it took, space suit, whatever it was, I feel if I could be given something to wear to give me full protection and her full protection then I would have done it, to spend some quality time with her in the last few months of her life.

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White

It must be frustrating, in a way, to know that at last people are perhaps trying to think of ways round it.

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Wilkins

Yeah, I鈥檓 pleased if my raising of this has done any good, then I feel that it鈥檚 not in vain.

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White

And our sincere thanks to Peter Wilkins for being prepared to talk to us about this.听 If any of you have been in a situation, anything like this, and feel able to tell us about it we鈥檇 be very interested, particularly if practical and appropriate solutions were found.

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Now we鈥檙e getting a steady flow of listeners鈥� experiences on the London Underground coming in to our email inbox, with a key concern being the continued refusal of physical assisted guidance due to covid restrictions.听 Now you鈥檙e telling us that Transport for London staff have been, on some occasions, unwilling to offer an arm to help negotiate a station and while a number of our emails praise the usual helpfulness of Underground staff it鈥檚 the inconsistency which is bothering people.听 And this is despite such guidance, still being on offer, everywhere else on the rail network.听 Plastic sleeves are being used as an extra protection measure.听

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Naki Rizvi is totally blind and he speaks for many of you.

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Rizvi

My issue is it doesn鈥檛 make any sense because if I鈥檓 wearing a mask and the member of staff is wearing a mask and if I sanitise my hands, if I take their elbow, I absolutely don鈥檛 see any risk.听 In fact, when I鈥檓 walking beside them and they鈥檙e trying to keep their distance, I bump into them a lot more than I would if I just took their arm.听 So, that, to me, doesn鈥檛 really make any sense.听 But also, I鈥檝e asked a few of the members of staff around why we have these issues and they talk about them not having funding for the plastic sleeves and all that stuff and again that doesn鈥檛 make sense to me.听 The plastic sleeves obviously are very, very cheap, if they can afford to provide a taxi to a VIP, I don鈥檛 see why plastic sleeves should cost anything.听 But also, I鈥檝e taken the taxi three times and all of those times it鈥檚 been a very negative experience.听 In one of the stations a member of staff wasn鈥檛 willing to guide me, even to the taxi, and had to request someone from National Rail to guide me.听 And I鈥檝e had to ask the public for assistance, which isn鈥檛 the safest way of doing things either.

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White

But Naki, do you understand why TFL and the unions feel they have to be very careful about the safety of their employees and their members?

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Rizvi

I absolutely appreciate that.听 I think we need to be sensible about it and we need to take the right precautions but if we鈥檙e wearing masks and if I sanitise my hands in front of them, if they wear a plastic sleeve, I don鈥檛 see what risk there is because I鈥檓 not making any contact with them.听 And a bit like what National Rail do, if they wear a sleeve and if I take their arm, as soon as they鈥檝e assisted me, they can chuck the sleeve away and that鈥檚 it.

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White

And Naki Rizvi isn鈥檛 alone in feeling let down.听 Back in September 18 year old Kelsey Trevett from Watford was refused any assistance at Harrow-on-the-Hill station.听 He ended up on his own and having to video call his dad who then verbally guided him.听 TFL apologised in this case and they said that Kelsey should have been verbally guided by staff.

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Well speaking in the London Assembly, the City鈥檚 Transport Commissioner, Andy Byford, was clearly shocked.

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Byford

I was a little taken aback when I heard about that actually, it seemed somewhat callous to let someone with visual impairment to say that you鈥檙e not going at least offer them verbal direction if there鈥檚 some reason why you鈥檙e not going to offer them your arm.听 So, I think it is about getting the balance right between maintaining safe distancing, social distancing, but it does seem odd that there鈥檚 a difference between what the mainline does and what the Tube does and that鈥檚 certainly something that I will be following up with the Chief Customer Officer, to be better understand why that occurred in the first place and to be certain that we鈥檝e rectified things in the interim.听 I don鈥檛 mind saying, I鈥檓 very sorry to the person concerned, that must have been an horrendous experience and I cringed when I read about that actually.

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White

London Transport Commissioner Andy Byford speaking on October 8th.听 听But almost six weeks later there鈥檚 still no offer of physically assisted guidance on the London Underground.

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Well, Caroline Pidgeon is a Lib Dem Deputy Chair of the London Assembly鈥檚 Transport Committee and she raised that issue in the Assembly session where Andy Byford was speaking there.听

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Caroline, like you, we鈥檝e been pushing for almost a couple of months now to get this sorted out.听 Have you had anymore luck and what do you think the stumbling blocks are?

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Pidgeon

Well, Peter, the case studies we鈥檝e just heard just show how totally unacceptable it is that Transport for London has basically withdrawn providing physical guided assistance by their staff to people who need it.听 And if National Rail can provide this service, there is no reason, with the right PPE in place, why Transport for London cannot provide this service around their network.听 I actually first started raising this in June, when I had casework coming through to me, I was assured it would be sorted in October.听 We heard what the Commissioner just said and here we are today it is still not in place.

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White

Caroline Pidgeon, thank you.听 Do stay with us because we are now joined by Transport for London鈥檚 Chief Customer Officer, Mark Evers.听

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Mark, we understand that TFL has to be mindful of staff and customer safety but why is this taking so long to sort out, after all the virus has been with us since March?

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Evers

Yeah, I can only start by apologising for the inconvenience and at times distress that people requiring physical guidance on our network have experienced at times.听 In order to try to do what was right and safe we heeded government advice and made some changes to the service.

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White

I should say the government have themselves said, at least a month ago, that it was okay for visually impaired people to be guided under safe circumstances.

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Evers

Well I鈥檓 very pleased to say that from Monday 23rd November physical guiding will recommence on the London Underground and Overground network.听 So, we will be providing disposal single use sleeves for our staff to wear, so that they are able to once again provide that really important physical assistance, so that people are able to travel independently.

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White

This is news to me, I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 been announced yet, what鈥檚 changed your minds?

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Evers

Well it鈥檚 been really important that we鈥檝e understood that we鈥檝e got safe procedures in place for both our customers and for our people; that we鈥檝e got the materials 鈥� the PPE 鈥� distributed across the 270 tube stations but really importantly, that we鈥檝e gone and worked with our trade union colleagues and communicated to our staff how this is going to work, that it is safe and the procedures that they need to follow in order to provide a service which we absolutely recognise is vitally important to customers and why we鈥檙e so pleased that we鈥檙e back in a situation where we鈥檒l be able to provide that from Monday.

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White

Mark, I still don鈥檛 understand why it鈥檚 taken eight months basically.

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Evers

Well for a long period of time the guidance was that it was important to maintain that two metre social distancing.听 It has taken us quite some time to move forward with this and again I can only apologise again for that.

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White

We鈥檙e obviously delighted that this decision has been made but I would like to explore a bit more because I think people need an explanation.听 We鈥檝e been told consistently that there were debates going on with the unions.听 We did invite the transport union, RMT, to appear on In Touch, they preferred to send a statement.听 They said: 鈥淐learly our overall priority, at the moment, has to be maintaining a covid safe environment for passengers and staff alike.听 However, assistance on the tube network has long been compromised by staff shortages which leaves some stations wholly unstaffed at times with no one to help those who need it.鈥�

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Are there staff shortages, are they right to say that it hasn鈥檛 always been possible to offer help because there aren鈥檛 enough people?

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Evers

We operate a service where we have staff at our stations through traffic hours.听 There may be extreme circumstances where for a short period of time a station might be unstaffed but that isn鈥檛 the normal occurrence at all.听 And that is one of the reasons why we are in the position to offer a turn up and go service, where a person is able to come to the station at any time and be provided with assistance by a member of staff.

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White

And there are still many blind people who, like others, have got legitimate reasons for travelling.

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Evers

Absolutely.

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White

Mark Evers, thank you very much indeed.听 I just want to go back, very quickly, to Lib Dem Assembly member Caroline Pidgeon.听 This was news to me, is it news to you?

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Pidgeon

It is news to me and of course it鈥檚 to be welcomed but how it has taken eight months for Transport for London to get to this position I think still needs to be looked into, when other train companies were able to provide the service.

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White

Well, we鈥檙e grateful to you both for coming on.听 We鈥檇 still like people鈥檚 views about this.听 Mark Evers, Caroline Pidgeon, thank you both very much indeed.

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And that鈥檚 all for this week.听 Next week, we鈥檙e going to be talking about Freeview鈥檚 new accessible TV guide on Channel 555, which we signposted last year.听 Well, it鈥檚 now here.听 The idea is to help you find programmes more easily.听 And if you鈥檙e using it already, do let us know what you make of it.

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And also next week, the campaign to save the RNIB鈥檚 large print library, which we also featured last week, at the very least for its younger users.听 A petition campaigning to save it has already attracted getting on for 2,000 signatures.听

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You can email In Touch with your views and experiences at bbc.co.uk, you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can find this and other editions of the programme.听 From me, Peter White, producer Mike Young and studio manager John Cole, goodbye.