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IN TOUCH 鈥� RNIB School Closure

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TX:听 04.09.2018听 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 SARAH LEWTHWAITE

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White

Good Evening. 听Tonight: we鈥檙e concentrating on the Royal National institute of Blind People鈥檚 plans for coping with the fallout from what鈥檚 been a very troubled few years.听听 A series of annual deficits, culminating in one of 拢12.6 million for the most recent year for which figures have been published; a strategy for raising money from selling services which has failed; redundancies, and the spectre of more and, perhaps most alarmingly, the revelation last April that the RNIB was being investigated by the Charity Commission for a failure to safeguard vulnerable pupils at a school for which they were responsible 鈥� the Pears Centre in Coventry. 听It was an investigation which resulted in the resignation of the organisation鈥檚 chief executive.听 But even as recently as last month Ofsted said the way the school was being run was still putting pupils at risk of serious harm.

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Joining me to discuss all of this and how the RNIB intends to deal with the issues arising from it are its interim chief executive Eliot Lyne, and Eleanor Southwood, who鈥檚 been its chair for just under a year.

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Today, the RNIB has announced that the Pears Centre will close, after attempts to put matters right have failed.听

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The RNIB has had six months to deal with these things, why has the school got to close now?

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Southwood

When I spoke to you back in April, Peter, I remember saying to you that our absolute priority was thinking about the support that the children at the RNIB Pears Centre children鈥檚 home required and making sure that they were getting the best possible support, which is absolutely what they deserve.听 Over the past six months, staff and everybody involved has worked very, very hard on improvements to the centre.听 It has become clear to us, however, that we have not managed to achieve what the regulators require from us and we are not therefore the right people to be providing what is a very, very specialist nursing environment.

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White

Can I just quote what Ofsted says in its most recent report?听 It says: 鈥淐urrent safeguarding practice in the school isn鈥檛 effective.听 The weaknesses in the staff鈥檚 practice and leaders鈥� oversight of this area are putting pupils at risk of serious harm.听 This is unacceptable.鈥澨� Pretty damning stuff isn鈥檛 it?

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Southwood

This is absolutely not RNIB鈥檚 proudest hour Peter.听 We have made efforts and I think it鈥檚 only right to accept and acknowledge that perhaps this was too little, too late.听 It was an enormously difficult decision for the board to decide to close the centre and one, that I鈥檓 personally very, very sad, to have had to make as well.听 But it is absolutely clear, keeping the best interests of the children in mind that we are not the right people to be providing the service.

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White

What will happen to the pupils at the school?听 Some of them presumably just about to go back after the holidays and can you tell us when it will actually close its doors?

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Southwood

The local authorities will be helping them to find new placements and our role will be to make sure that the transition into those placements is as smooth as possible.

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White

And what about the parents, because they must be very confused about what鈥檚 happening with the children just going back for a new term and really not probably expecting this news?

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Southwood

I completely understand that for all of the families involved this is no doubt an uncertain and anxious time.听 I鈥檓 determined that we do everything possible to support them in every way we can.听 We鈥檝e kept in very close contact with them and we have, again, this time, made sure that we are speaking to the parents.

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White

Can I just ask you about a point that you鈥檝e already raised?听 You said you didn鈥檛 think perhaps you were the right people to do this.听 Can I broaden that?听 When this investigation was announced it was suggested by the Charity Commission that the RNIB could lose its right to be registered to run residential care facilities, is this still the case and what effect could that have and given the failures in this area should the RNIB be running schools and residential care facilities at all, aren鈥檛 there other people who are better at doing that?

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Southwood

Our focus right now is obviously on the centre in Coventry.听 We recognise that we are not the right people to be running what is an extremely specialist and intense service requiring lots of nursing support and so on and that is the only service of that sort that RNIB currently runs.听 Of course, you would be amazed if we weren鈥檛 always reviewing our services.听 We will need to make decisions in the future but clearly, I鈥檓 not going to speculate on what they might be.

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White

And it is fair to say, isn鈥檛 it, that the RNIB has let the children at the school, their parents and itself down really?

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Southwood

This is definitely not our proudest moment.听 I share that feeling.听 I think that one of the things I felt very acutely in April, and still do feel, is that we have let down the children who call RNIB Pears Centre their home.听 We are not providing the service that they have every right to expect.听 I feel profoundly sorry for that and our focus now remains on making sure that the children get the best possible support.

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White

The whole idea of this was to talk about a number of aspects of the situation facing the RNIB.听 Let me bring in Eliot Lyne.听 You are interim chief executive now, you were interim finance director before that.听 With the job of dealing with these deficits why did they happen and what鈥檚 the strategy for bringing the RNIB back into a sound financial position?

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Lyne

Thank you, Peter.听 My job, when I joined RNIB, was to review what we needed to do to improve the financial position that we found ourselves in.听 We鈥檝e had to make some really tough decisions in terms of reducing our numbers of staff and reviewing our services.听 We have got to a position now, in the most recent accounts, which aren鈥檛 yet published, which will be posting an operational surplus, which is a significant turnaround from the 拢12.6 million deficit which you mentioned before.听 I can鈥檛 go into too many details because it鈥檚 still subject to audit but it鈥檚 between 拢5 and 拢10 million surplus which we expect to post in the year ending 31st March 2018.

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White

But you still haven鈥檛 told me how it could have happened and you must know that because you must have looked at all the back figures 鈥� if you had the job of sorting it out you would have wanted to know how that happened in the first place.

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Southwood

I think it鈥檚 fair to say, Peter, that like lots of charities it鈥檚 tough out there and I think if we鈥檙e being brutally honest I think RNIB has been operating in some ways which were not sustainable and I think that our desire to do everything for everyone and to really try to provide everything I suspect led us to a place where actually that wasn鈥檛 sustainable, which is precisely why Eliot and I are determined to focus on what we are absolutely here to do, what is it that RNIB can do for our community that nobody else can.

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White

Well were you trying to operate as a business when in fact what you are is a charity?

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Southwood

I would point to the range of things that we were seeking to do and also, frankly, some of the working practices which probably were not very modern.

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White

So, Eliot, the question I know you want me to ask you and I will ask you 鈥� what have you done to deal with it?听 Can you give us examples of how this has been achieved 鈥� to go from a 拢12.6 million deficit to a surplus between 拢5 and 拢10 million?

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Lyne

So, we鈥檝e had to take some difficult decisions in our staffing, that saved us a considerable amount of money.听 We鈥檝e also taken the decisions to reduce the amount of money we spend on our marketing and fundraising, in the short term and in the year that follows we鈥檒l be looking at reintroducing some of that expenditure to make sure that we鈥檙e financially sustainable in the longer term.

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White

There is an inevitable tension, isn鈥檛 there, between restoring financial stability and protecting valued services and jobs.

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Lyne

Absolutely, I mean it鈥檚 a very difficult balance and we have to take the decisions on the basis of where the organisation鈥檚 going and our vision for the future.

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White

Can we perhaps deal with services?听 I mean one of the RNIB鈥檚 most used and most valued service, often described as its flagship service, is their Talking Book library.听 We鈥檝e asked listeners for their questions and Jackie Brown from Maghera in Northern Ireland has a question about that.听

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Brown

A few years ago, the RNIB decided to stop charging blind and partially sighted people for Talking Book membership.听 Given RNIB is now strapped for cash could they explain this decision, given that a lot of money was spent on Daisy players to accommodate titles with the Daisy structure, where books can be navigated by heading, page number, phrase etc.?听 As avid readers, my husband Martin and I, are concerned that a lot of books are now coming from other companies in MP3 format which don鈥檛 have Daisy navigation.

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White

Eliot Lyne, an odd thing to do, is what Jackie鈥檚 implying, for an organisation in trouble to make a service free which a lot of people seemed willing to pay for because they value it so highly.听 What鈥檚 the logic?

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Lyne

We took the decision to make Talking Books free in 2015.听 Since then we鈥檝e had a 50% increase in numbers of customers participating.听 We had seen at the time that local authorities were increasingly unable or unwilling to spend the money on this service, so we wanted to make sure that this service continued to exist and indeed expand it.

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White

But the argument is that you鈥檇 expect, if you were doing that, you鈥檇 want to feel that you could improve the service and Jackie鈥檚 implication is that although you may be having more books a lot of the precision that you鈥檇 built into the system for digital books was being lost.

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Lyne

Customers choose to receive their books in a number of different formats.听 We know there are some issues with some of the ways that we deliver these books and we鈥檙e looking at those at the moment and hope to be launching new digital ways of getting Talking Books in the New Year.

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White

Another question about services was also put on this programme when your Talk and Support service, which puts older blind people in touch with each other to swap ideas and offer mutual support, had some of its coordinators made redundant.听 And one of the service鈥檚 volunteers, Diane Benjamin, wanted answers about that.

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Benjamin

I have several questions that I would like you to answer on how things are going to happen.听 Who鈥檚 going to assess people?听 I鈥檇 like to ask the RNIB who was consulted 鈥� how many of the users were consulted about this?

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White

That last point is one that keeps cropping up from listeners 鈥� the feeling that consultation of people who are the 鈥� the people you鈥檙e working for, aren鈥檛 being consulted enough and Talk and Support obviously is a part of the organisation which deals with a very vulnerable part of your core people.听 Why did you do that?

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Lyne

We鈥檙e actually currently running some pilot sessions where the 鈥� where our customers dial in themselves.听 We鈥檙e not going to put people in the position where if they can鈥檛 dial in we won鈥檛 do that.

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White

I mean that was the suggestion 鈥� that people would find this technically difficult.听 Not everybody of course but that some people would and these might be the very people who would benefit most from the service.

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Lyne

And we鈥檒l continue to support those people with our staff and volunteers to make sure they can access the service.

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White

You talked about the issue of jobs.听 It was reported earlier this year that discussions were under way about a possible 350 redundancies.听 How many jobs have you lost, how many jobs will you have to lose?

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Lyne

We have around 200 less staff than we had 12 months ago.听 We鈥檝e been through a number of restructuring processes over the last 12-18 months to get to this position.听 And we don鈥檛 currently have any plans to do anymore at this point.

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White

How many of those jobs lost are jobs done by visually impaired people?

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Lyne

I don鈥檛 have those figures to hand Peter.听 One thing we are doing at the moment is to make RNIB a great place to work for sighted and for blind and partially sighted people.听 So, we鈥檝e just established a new project to focus all of our efforts on employing more blind and partially sighted people and having more blind and partially sighted volunteers.

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White

Can I bring Eleanor Southwood in on that because in our previous interview you said you felt that the 7% of employees of the RNIB who were visually impaired was not good enough, it was too low, this won鈥檛 help will it?

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Southwood

Clearly, us being an exemplar employer of blind and partially sighted staff is critical.听 And, if I鈥檓 honest, we haven鈥檛 always been.

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Lyne

We have to look at all aspects of how we employ blind and partially sighted people, right from when they join the organisation, how they鈥檙e welcomed into the organisation, how we make sure that if there鈥檚 an Access to Work assessment that we don鈥檛 wait for that to happen, that we provide the right equipment at the right time.

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White

It does seem extraordinary that the Royal National Institute of Blind People, of all organisations, should be only now thinking about all the things that you actually advise other people that they ought to do.

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Southwood

I wouldn鈥檛 say we鈥檙e only just thinking about it, Peter, but certainly鈥�

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White

Well then why was the figure as low as 7% in that case?

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Southwood

Well I mean I think we have 10% in total of our staff identifies as having a disability and actually compared to other charities that鈥檚 not a bad figure.听 My personal aspiration, and the one that the board absolutely shares, is that we want blind and partially sighted people to be able to work with and for us in any way they choose and for RNIB to be putting into practice the things that rightly others ask for our advice on.

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White

Can we perhaps discuss this in the light of one particular job?听 You need a new permanent chief executive鈥�

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Southwood

Indeed, indeed.

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White

鈥�how are plans progressing to get one?

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Southwood

So, we have engaged a partner to help us with the search and I should say that a very specific thing that the board has asked of that organisation is that they really, really focus on getting to blind and partially sighted people.

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White

Yeah because you have said you鈥檇 love the RNIB to have a visually impaired chief executive.听 Is this going to be effective because the process only a year or so ago a lot of people felt that that didn鈥檛 give opportunities to blind people to get to the final stages of the appointment?

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Southwood

The process that we run will be totally transparent, it will be robust and we will be able to demonstrate that everybody who meets the appropriate criteria will absolutely get that opportunity.

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White

So, what鈥檚 the overall strategy for deciding what the RNIB is for?听 Are you a service provider, are you a campaigner, are you an arbiter of standards and are you biting off more than you can chew by trying to do all three?

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Southwood

We have had some absolutely fascinating discussions about this with our community and with all of our volunteers and supporters.听 And I think what鈥檚 clear is that we historically have perhaps been trying to do too much and in doing that we鈥檝e actually been providing services to a very small number of people and actually lots of blind and partially sighted people and people who could benefit from support haven鈥檛 got anything.听 So, the absolute fundamental of our future is about equipping people with what they need in order to thrive.听 So, that might be advice for anyone of the 250 people who today will be told that they鈥檙e losing some or all of their sight.听 It might be advice on how to access the latest technology, for someone like me who鈥檚 been blind since birth.

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White

But you say you鈥檝e had fascinating discussions over the last few months but we get a lot of feedback from people, for example, Brian Gaff, Dennis Huckold, who feel that these discussions haven鈥檛 been transparent enough.

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Southwood

We have certainly worked quite hard to reach people but clearly there is more to do.听 And that鈥檚 one of the reasons why we are getting ourselves in much better shape to be able to hear feedback, so that we can evolve things to meet people鈥檚 needs and expectations.听 So, if those people feel that that hasn鈥檛 happened then we鈥檇 love to hear from them, we would love to involve them in not just telling us what they think but in actually helping us to design the things that ultimately, Peter, are there for all of us.

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White

One of the themes that鈥檚 come out 鈥� and we keep coming back to 鈥� are the number of things the RNIB tries to do and you鈥檝e just given me another long list.

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Southwood

I think that, historically, we have tried to do too many different things and the consequence of that is I think a bit of a loss of focus.听 The critical thing is that we鈥檙e here for anybody who needs us in the way that is sustainable to be.听 So, that鈥檚 about eye clinic liaison officers who every day see people who are just being diagnosed or whose sight might be changing, it鈥檚 about people on the end of our helpline who can give advice on all sorts of things.听 Being clear on what our role is and what it isn鈥檛, I think is fundamental.听 When I talk to our supporters and donors the two things that really come through, that they see RNIB doing, are that support at diagnosis.听 So, that idea that somebody might be told they鈥檙e losing some or all of their sight and then they鈥檙e just left alone to get on the bus and go home with nothing 鈥� no support, no nothing.听 We want to change that.

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White

Eleanor Southwood, Eliot Lyne, thank you both very much.

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And we want your comments please.听 What kind of RNIB do you want to see, how do you react to what you鈥檝e heard? 听You can call our actionline on 0800 044 044.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk 听or click on contact us on our website, from where you can also download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme. 听From me Peter White, producer Sarah Lewthwaite and the team, goodbye.听听听听听听听听听

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