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Ancient British sailors
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Monday, 21st March 2011
Can anyone shed any light on whether the Iron Age Britons had large sailing boats? Caesar relates that the Veneti of Gaul had large ships in which they used to sail to Britain and he makes frequent comment on emissaries and ambassadors crossing from Britain to Gaul to meet him but he does not say what type of vessel they used.
It is hard to credit that, when wooden sailing ships were known throughout the ancient world and definitely recorded as being used around the coasts of Gaul, that the Britons continued to use small, paddle-driven coracles or curraghs but I have not been able to find any ancient source for the use of what were recognisable sailing ships used around Britain.
Tony -
Message 2
Posted by Wyldeboar (U11225571) on Monday, 21st March 2011
IIRC the Bronze Age episode of Neil Olivers recent history programme featured a large wooden boat, constructed of planks TIED together, that is preserved in Dover Museum. -
Message 3
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Monday, 21st March 2011
... and the North Ferriby boats of c1700-1900 BCE weren't exactly "coracles" either. F1's remains as discovered were over 40' long, and it is estimated she could have carried over 4 tons of cargo.
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Message 4
Posted by giraffe47 (U4048491) on Tuesday, 22nd March 2011
Living on an Island, it is hard to believe they did not have pretty good boats!
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Message 5
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Tuesday, 22nd March 2011
Your question, Tony, I think is more about the means of propulsion than the size, it's proven that large hide and wooden boats had been used since the bronze Age at least. There was a lengthy discussion about sailing ships on the 'Post Roman York' thread
The Neil Oliver programme showed a suggested example of a neolithic sail, a construction of a wicker framework with interwoven strips of hide. I couldn't see what advantage that would have had over a stretched hide, assuming they were in fact using sails. There are petroglyphs of sailing ships in Sweden but I believe they are usually dated later than your period but perhaps someone like Nordmann can clarify this. -
Message 6
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Wednesday, 23rd March 2011
Hi Ferval. Yes, you are correct. The Bronze Age vessels mentioned were probably powered by paddles. I have been looking, in vain, for evidence of sailing ships in the pre-Roman Iron Age in Britain.
I have found a reference in Dio Cassius to Caesar building special ships for his second invasion of Britain. These were a combination of his own fast ships and the bulkier, heavier native vessels. It could be inferred from this comment that there were British sailing vessels except that, Caesar was in Gaul at the time, so the "natives" in question may well have been Gauls rather than Britons.
I still find it hard to credit that the Gauls had sailing ships and the British did not but I have, so far, not been able to find anything to prove that the Iron Age Britons used anything other than lightweight paddle-driven vessels.
Tony -
Message 7
Posted by dunchi (U14824339) on Saturday, 26th March 2011
Living on an Island, it is hard to believe they did not have pretty good boats!
Ìý In ancient times the wooden boats were solidly built, a great masterpiece containing cabins that could carry as much as 2,000 or more slaves at a stretch. -
Message 8
Posted by bandick (U14360315) on Saturday, 26th March 2011
I’m amazed at that… but know very little about ancient ships, can you recommend any reading to further my knowledge… 2.000 on a ship is some feat I think..
Regards bandick -
Message 9
Posted by TonyG (U1830405) on Sunday, 27th March 2011
2,000 does seem remarkable. Still, ther ei sno doubt that the Carthaginians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians and Romans all had well-built, wooden ships powered by oars and/or sails. Caesar mentions the Gauls also having large sailing ships. In fact, if memory serves me, he says they were so large that they could hardly be rowed and relied on sail power. That must be taken with a pinch of salt, I think.
However, there is no evidence, either written or archaeological, as far as I know, to support the use of wooden sailing ships in Iron Age Britain. Their use can be inferred from the exitence of large Bronze Age, paddle-prowered ships and from the comments that Iron Age Britons often croissed the Channel but that is about it.
The argument against is that when Caesar invaded Britain, his ships were never threatened by any British vessels. He lso ships due to storms and his harbour was attacked by British land forces but no British ships ever tried to attack him. Of course, the Britons may have had only merchant vessels rather than warships.
It is a puzzle. Hopefully somebody can point to some evidence.
Tony
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