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Army in the late Roman Empire (c378 AD) - tribune?

• Message 1. 

  Posted by Gordopolis (U5722839) on Monday, 24th January 2011

  Hi,
  
  I hope this is the relevant forum for my question (Late Roman verging on Byzantine):
  
  Around the time of the Battle of Adrianople, the Roman army in the east seemes to have a fairly clear high command system, namely:
  1 * Emperor-> many magister militums -> many counts/dukes
  
  ...this is all good and clear. However, the structure underneath the counts/dukes is pretty sketchy and most pieces I have read are quite vague on this (understandable given the changes afoot in the army around this period).
  
  As I understand it, a count would command many legions (1-2k men very roughly) of comitatenses and a duke would command many legions of limitanei (1-2k men again very roughly), but what rank of officer would command each individual legion? I have read that it would be a tribune in command of an individual legion, but also that the term tribune could be applied to a man who leads a cohort or any small detachment of troops.
  
  Reading around on the web and in books is proving quite frustrating, as I think I have ironed out an answer, then the next piece I check contradicts my understanding!
  
  Any help would be most appreciated
  
  Thanks in advance,
  Gordopolis

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• Message 2

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by ArweRheged (U14720560) on Monday, 24th January 2011

  Hi Gordopolis
  
  Haesten is the chap you need to speak to - he's excellent on this sort of thing.
  
  My view (expressed ad nauseam in the Post Roman York thread) is that the actual strength and origin of late Roman forces (in Britain at least) was quite different from the ideals of earlier times.
  
  Rome was slowly collapsing and by the latter days was probably a bit of a curate's egg - good in parts. Rather like Tolkien's Gondor, only with slighly more convincing dialogue and fewer elves.
  
  Regards,
  
  A R

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• Message 3

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 25th January 2011

  Gordopolis:
  
  The late limitanei legion may have still been the classic legion of 5/6 century cohorts x 6/10 with the primus pilus as top NCO, (Vegetius circa 385)
  
  The comitatenses (field army) was a rapid response outfit with lots of cavalry, a turmae of 32 men under a decurion was the smallest unit.
  The eastern field army relied heavily on barbarian horse archers while the west stuck more to the heavy infantry. It is thought that the horn recurve bow delaminated in maritime climates like Britain and of course Britain stuck to the infantry shield wall for another 600 years.

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• Message 4

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by englishvote (U5473482) on Tuesday, 25th January 2011

  Hi Gordopolis
  
  
  You might have already seen these websites but they are handy for some background to late Roman army organisations
  
  
  
  
  This website has some information on ranks within the Roman army of the 4th and 5th centuries.
  
  
  
  There has been much discussion on these boards about the roman army, much of it badly informed or pure guesswork. But in this regard these boards are very similar to much published rambling about the Late Roman army which is also badly researched and primarily guess work
  
  The truth is that there are very large holes in our knowledge of 4th and 5th century Roman military organisation, and unfortunately many chose to invent ideas to fill these gaps.
  

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• Message 5

  , in reply to message 3.

  Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 25th January 2011

  The Military Institutions of the Romans
  (De Re Militari)
  By Flavius Vegetius Renatus
  
  
  madsb/home/war/vegetius/

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• Message 6

  , in reply to message 5.

  Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 25th January 2011

  opps,
  
  madsb/home/war/vegetius/

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• Message 7

  , in reply to message 6.

  Posted by Haesten (U4770256) on Tuesday, 25th January 2011

  google, vegetius text english
  
  

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• Message 8

  , in reply to message 1.

  Posted by Prof Muster (U14387921) on Friday, 28th January 2011

  The Battles between Stillicho and Alarik were show skirmeshes, afterthe Empire was divided into non cooporating halves ruled by Honorius & his brother
  The Chief-commanders were Aetius and Rufinus, who attacked invading Vandals but also each other halve's expeditionary armies in hot pursuite of invading barbarians.
  
  When Roman armies around 475 ad becan to battle each other the end was near when Olybrius and Ricimer & Odocre Generals of German forces returned
  the regalia to the East-Roman emperor Zeno, when the Ravenna based Empire lost controle of britain, France and Spain.renaming Italy the Kingdom of the Germans.
  
  It is hard to believe that Military Titles and Army-structure remained the same under German supervision. inbetween 479-520 ad in Italy.

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