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Archaeoastronomy
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Message 1.Ìý
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Is Ireland's Newgrange site the oldest ancient monument to have a proven astronomical event built into, or associated with, its construction.
At sunrise at the mid-winter solstice the sun's rays penetrate all the way down its upwardly sloping entrance passage into the heart of the mound.
It has been dated to 3200BC.
If you know of any other monuments or sites of similar interest can you explain their significance.
I can think of Stonehenge, Giza , but neither are older. -
Message 2
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Archaeoastronomy is a minefield for archaeologists since it cannot be conducted without allowing ethnohistoric and ethnographic analogy play a greater role than would normally be deemed advisable (none, normally). In addition it tends to focus on artefacts that, by their nature, are incredibly difficult to date.
Newgrange (another site that itself is subject to debate regarding age and function) is recognised as one of the older extant sites with strong grounds to suppose an astronomical observation purpose. But the same claim is made with regard to several hundred megalithic structures on the Iberian peninsula, for example, which have been tentatively dated to a millennium or thereabouts before Newgrange. The site of Alto da Portela do Pau in Portugal, for example, contains several passage graves in the style of Newgrange, some of which are seemingly aligned with astronomical events in mind. -
Message 3
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 30th November 2007
I think Meashowe on Orkney also illunimates at the summer solstice.
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Message 4
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Hi generallobus,
The rear of the chamber at Maeshowe is illuminated at dawn for several days around the Winter Solstice, but in general your point is valid. What it means is a different matter!
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 5
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Archaeoastronomy is a minefield for archaeologists since it cannot be conducted without allowing ethnohistoric and ethnographic analogy play a greater role than would normally be deemed advisable (none, normally).Ìý
I think we should keep all 'ethnohistoric' or 'ethnographic' irrelevancies out of this thread.
I am not surprised that there might be older monuments with astronomical alignments in Iberia and brittany as there is a well attested Atlantic seaboard communication highway in megalithic times.
Dates are obviously a problem with these kinds of structures unless one kind find a datable artifact beneath the stones themselves and most can agree on its date.
Newgrange (another site that itself is subject to debate regarding age and function) is recognised as one of the older extant sites with strong grounds to suppose an astronomical observation purpose.Ìý
I don't believe that Newgrange was used for observational purposes. Nor do I believe it was set up as an elaborate way of marking the winter solstice. I find it very hard to accept that ancient man would not have known precisely where on his local horizon the sun rose and set during the solstices. This kind of knowledge would be acquired over generations and passed on as naturally as all other communal lore.
I don't think there can be any doubt that ancient man knew that the winter solstice marked the turn of the year and that from that day all days would lengthen and the sun would grow warmer. It would seem therefore that Newgrange would have more religious in nature, a bit like a medievel cathedral; a place where the rebirth of all living (and possibly dead) things were celebrated. The heart of the mound was then a sort of 'holy of holies', an inner sanctum. And just like a cathedral, a place where important people in the community were given their final resting place.
I looked up Alto de Portela do Pau but found little in English and nothing about astronomical alignments. Any further info of a particular nature? -
Message 6
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Generallobus,
Has Maeshowe been dated? Couldn't find a date. I am aware that there can be problems assigning dates to megaliths but the neolithic was mentioned based on pottery, I think. -
Message 7
Posted by TwinProbe (U4077936) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Hi Mick_mac,
The Historic Scotland handbook dates Maeshhowe to 5000 years bp. The evidence seems to be by typological analogies to 'better dated monuments'. This must surely mean that there are no radiocarbon dates for organic remains from the time of the monument's construction. There is a scientific date for the surrounding ditch - that is 4500 bp. There are two types of pottery in Orkney, the early Unstan Ware and the later Grooved ware. The Grooved ware was found at Maeshowe. All in all a late Neolithic date seems most likley and Maeshowe must be one of the supreme Neolithic monuments of Europe.
Best wishes,
TP -
Message 8
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Apropos early man's knowledge of events of astronomical significance I came across this link:
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Message 9
Posted by generallobus (U1869191) on Friday, 30th November 2007
Hi Twinprobe. You're quite right it is the winter solstice. TFIF, I need a lie down.
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Message 10
Posted by an ex-nordmann - it has ceased to exist (U3472955) on Friday, 30th November 2007
I looked up Alto de Portela do Pau but found little in English and nothing about astronomical alignments. Any further info of a particular nature?
Ìý
My Science magazine article was written by a guy called Michael Hoskin. While seeing on the web if I could find something more accessible from the guy to recommend I found this gem of a journal in pdf format that covers both the subject and the area in great detail. It even has an article containing a warning to archaeoastronomical researchers not to employ ethnohistoric or ethnographic analogies overmuch. Must be Hoskin's catchphrase!
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Message 11
Posted by Mick_mac (U2874010) on Monday, 3rd December 2007
Hi Nordmann,
I came across this webpage myself and having read it realised that none of the 400 Iberian monuments investigated by Hoskins were actually aligned on the midwinter (or midsummer) sunrise. Over 300 of his tombs were categorized by him as being aligned on some sunrise (or even moonrise) during the year; that is, virtually all of the tombs were oriented within a limited range of the eastern quadrant of the horizon. However, none of them were oriented precisely on midwinter or any other significant astronomical event.
David S. P. Dearborn, astrophysicist, is quoted at the following link [‘ as saying : ‘When dealing with architecture, astronomically significant orientations like the direction of a sun rise or set on the date of a solstice are most commonly looked for. The place on the horizon where the sun stops and turns in its annual journey is obvious, and immediately establishes an accurate annual calendar. Observation of the equinoxes requires an additional level of sophistication (and suggest an additional partition of the year), so are more difficult to argue. While the claims for a precise megalithic astronomy have been substantially discredited, the solsticial orientations of Stonehenge and Newgrange are generally accepted.Ìý
I was referring in my original post to particularly significant astronomical alignments such as that of the midwinter solstice sunrise at Newgrange. I still think it is the oldest monument on the planet with such an alignment. Maybe I am wrong. I had hoped that others would come forward with examples but there appears to be little interest among board-members regarding this subject.
The Iberian tombs merely show a general concern among their builders to face their constructions towards the east, where the sun rises, in much the same orientation as Christians were buried in the more recent past. Another example of pagan survival into the Christian era, I suppose. -
Message 12
Posted by Wallace Darwin (U14811469) on Saturday, 12th March 2011
It is a common fallacy to imagine that prehistoric archaeology does not make use of analogy in constructing interpretations of its raw data, and that for that reason archaeoastronomical interpretations are less plausible than 'orthodox' ones. Calling a structure a 'chambered tomb' or a 'domestic roundhouse' must involve drawing analogies with modern tombs and inhabited roundhouses, even though the analogies are so familiar and obvious that they may seem to have come automatically with the data as it were. The mute archaeological evidence cannot by itself tell us how the prehistoric population behaved; we need to look at similar modern artefacts, or buildings to find clues to this. I discussed all this in some detail in my 'Science and Society in Prehistoric Britain' (1977), simply because it seemed important to be clear about the processes of archaeological inference, especially if one was going to offer unorthodox views, as I did there.
Euan MacKie -
Message 13
Posted by somewhatsilly (U14315357) on Saturday, 12th March 2011
Indeed, remains do not, of themselves, reveal meaning but they do indicate intentionality and astronomical alignments, when observable, could well signify this. Unfortunately identifying significance does not explain that perceived meaning to them beyond 'it must have been important'. Even that is an assumption based on our perception of what constitutes importance.
Ethnographic and anthropological data can offer a range of possible analogies that can be tested against the data to yield up, if there is some concordance, possible interpretations and help us to think beyond our preconceptions but these cannot be more than unprovable suggestions. Mind reading is impossible in the present, never mind the past. -
Message 14
Posted by Sambista (U4068266) on Saturday, 12th March 2011
Isn't there at least some evidence for Egyptian use of alignments on the heliacal rising of Sirius from at least 3rd Dynasty? It certainly seems to have been of significance to them as a pointer to the annual inundation,
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Message 15
Posted by raundsgirl (U2992430) on Sunday, 13th March 2011
Astronomical phenomena were clearly made use of at Newgrange, Maes Howe and other sites, but that is a long way from proving they were used for observational purposes.
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