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Gun Powder
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Message 1.Â
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Wednesday, 3rd November 2010
So much of what we take for granted today, in the way of every day items, came out of things discoverd or invented for war, But am I right in thinking that Gun Powder was a peace time discovery by the Chinese, and only later adapted for war. Some what Ironic if it was.
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Message 2
Posted by Amphion (U3338999) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
If I recall from certain things I have read, the Chinese used the gunpowder in their firework celebrations, but the invading Mongol hordes (Ghengis Khan himself) recognised the potential for using it in battle, their first opponents being the very Chinese province where they first became aware of it.
However, as this period of history is definatley not one of my strong points, I have to say that my facts may be wrong. As for the timescale of this remains unknown to me, and at what period in history, Europe and the rest of the world caught on, I don't know.
Perhaps the Mongols in their wars in the west introduced it and in doing so made their enemies aware of it??????????????????????????? -
Message 3
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
A form of gunpowder was invented in China probably in the early 11th century, and by 1044 they were using it in grenades, by the early 13th century they were using it in a form of primitive flamethrower and in 1259 they are recorded as having what seems to have been a form of bamboo pellet gun. Middle Eastern Muslims, however, seem to have improved it and may have been the first to include it in a projectile weapon.
This was then transmitted to Europe via the Crusades. European gunpowder is difficult to identify as they often used obscure terms or mangled Arabic phrases. The 1332 inventories of Mont Orgueil Castle in Jersey mention 'sulphur vivum', which is probably a form of gunpowder. The English were using it as an explosive against the Scots in 1304. Cannon had been developed by 1313 in Europe, whereas the earliest datable Chinese example only hails from the 1370s -
Message 4
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
Canons pre-existed gunpowder. Greeks used pressurised steam canons for siege warfare since Hellenistic times. The same system was used to project the Greek fire by the Eastern Romans. The Greek fire was by far the most devastating weapon against navies and armies as even 1 throw was enough to sink a ship to oblivion though it would be useless at offensive siege work apart burning down the inside of the city (projected by a catapult).
The advent of gunpowder changed the plot on 2 ways:
1) It nuliffied traditional castle building as all castles would be brought down even by mediocre canons. The fortifications since Renaissance evolved into complex structures of wall and earth (to absorb the ball without damage of the structure and even without need of much repair). Best example was the French fortifications of the 1500s-1600s which are not so known for the simple reason that they were never taken by anyone thus showing evidently that nobody even tried to do anything about it.
2) the adaptation of gunpowder on personal rifles changed for ever warfare : in the old days training was for life. With the rifle, training could be done theoretically even in 1 day - here is the rifle, you load it that way, you aim the enemy, you press here, it shoots, that is all. While in potential damage in battle the rifle surpassed the longbow only in the 19th century, the fact that it did not need any physical training and that it did not need any protection - as it was more or less futile - made it the most effective cost-effective weapon. On top, the gunpowder personal weapons - unlike bows - were seen as a field of continuous improvement as it was obvious to anyone that their design was primitive and it could be continuously evolved into something better while that was not so obvious with the bow as stronger bows would eventually surpass the maximum human strength - the longbow was already in the limits. For the rifle there was no such limitation. -
Message 5
Posted by LairigGhru (U14051689) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
Adding to Anglo-Norman's post above, all of which accords with my information, there is evidence also that a German monk called Friar Berthold of Freiburg discovered the mixture by chance in his laboratory in the 1300s and a stray spark set it off.
There is a story that the Chinese city of Tzu T'ung was rocketed by an army besieging it in 994 AD. -
Message 6
Posted by Pete- Weatherman (U14670985) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
This is getting daft. We get TV radio and dozens of other uses full things becuse of war and yet things like Gun powder Dynamite and even Nitro Glyciern were all discoverd in time of peace and later used for war, There is some thing Ironic there.
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Message 7
Posted by Grumpyfred (U2228930) on Thursday, 4th November 2010
I would suggest that the best fortress ever built to withstand bombardment by cannon, has to be Fort George outside Inverness in Scotland.
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Message 8
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Friday, 5th November 2010
Greeks used pressurised steam canons for siege warfare since Hellenistic times.Â
The same system was used to project the Greek fire by the Eastern RomansÂ
Do you have academically referenced sources for these assertions ? -
Message 9
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 7th November 2010
Surprisingly enough a steam powered weapon based on Archimedes' design was tested by a team from MIT and found to work very effectively;
The Byzantine's did use a syphon system for projecting Greek Fire.
This has nothing to do with gunpowder,but is such a remarkable construction it deserves a mention;
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Message 10
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Tuesday, 9th November 2010
Triceratops,
Testing vague concepts is, no doubt, fun. It certainly looks fun on 'Mythbusters'.
But I asked for academically supportable evidence that such steam devices were actually used, not that the concept was sound.
Generally, to make steam power work reliably you need good metallurgy, to overcome rapid heat changes, and good metal fabrication, to ensure that the metal parts fit together properly.
Steam cannon might be a bit simpler, but I still require historically reliable evidence.
The Romans never thought to mention they were under high powered long range bombardment at Syracuse ?
Inconvenient. -
Message 11
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 14th November 2010
TT,
I was checking to see if such a weapon was possible with the technology of the time. After 2200 hundred years it is unlikely we will ever know for certain one way or another.
The Romans never thought to mention they were under high powered long range bombardment at Syracuse ?Â
But they do,Polybius book 8;
"Nor was Appius Claudius more successful. He too was compelled by similar difficulties to desist from the attempt; for while his men were still at a considerable distance from the wall,they began from the stones & shots from the engines & catapults.The volleys of missiles indeed were rapid and sharp,for their construction had been provided for by all the liberality of a Hiero and had been planned and engineered by all the skill of Archimedes"
.....................
Back to gunpowder and another test,this one of a reconstruction of a pot-de-fer found at Loshult in Sweden and carried out by a team of researchers called the Ho Group from Denmark.The original weapon measured 302mm in length,weighed 9kg and had a bore estimated at 30-36mm. A 50g charge of powder with 50% saltpetre content achieved a muzzle velocity of 110m/s,while a 75% saltpetre content achieved 142m/s.The 184g lead ball achieved flights of 275m to a maximum of 945m the average being 630m. -
Message 12
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Sunday, 14th November 2010
" they began falling from the stones & shots"
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Message 13
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Monday, 15th November 2010
Triceratops
After 2200 hundred years it is unlikely we will ever know for certain one way or another.Â
I think it is quite easy to be certain.
The description you quote is rather obviously of standard catapults and other conventional weaponry. The descriptions of the siege of Syracuse given are quite clear and quite standard. The descriptions are of catapults and lever powered devices.There is no hint of a brand new technology.
All they are saying is that Archimedes tightened up on the designs already available. Given that the Romans eventually overwhelmed the defences, are you seriously suggesting they neither noticed, nor stole, these new inventions ?
You do not give a date for the second gun you mention. So, having wondered about the dangers of typing 'Ho group' in to my search engine, I took the pluunge.
According to the estimates in the sites I saw, this is from around the 1320s. Given that the Arabs had gunpowder by about 1280, this date for the Loshult gun is far from impossible. -
Message 14
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Monday, 15th November 2010
A treatise on kingship presented to Edward III c.1327 contains an image of what is often referred to as a 'vase gun', and has been claimed as the earliest illustration of a cannon. It is very similar to the Loshult gun, though loaded with a giant arrow rather than a roundshot.
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Message 15
Posted by Nik (U1777139) on Wednesday, 17th November 2010
There are at least two hellenistic scientists known to have been occupied with the construction of steam cannons - that is Ctesibius and Archimedes but since the respective works have not been saved, we do not know details of their size or range. Probably they would be mid-range weapons used in sieges only. For long range, the weight-based defense-catapults were effective and widely used.
Romans seemed not to have steam cannons but then one has to pinpoint that Roman army was much less equiped in terms of technology in comparison to the overspecialised hellenistic armies. Romans had not anything close to the huge multistorey automatic siege towers that hellenistic kingdoms had and no big catapults for the simple reason that the first time they needed them again were after the 5th century A.D. but then we talk mostly about Eastern Roman Empire.
Eastern Romans as soon as they needed the cannon - for their Greek fire - they had it there, there was no big fuss on it, the invention seemed to pre-existed and was known to them.
PS: there is much maligned opinion out there and I need only to mention the likes of clowns like mythbusters... who as-if tried to verify if Archimedes mirrors were realistic and they did the test somewhere in the states and managed to burn a bit a boat.... so saying it would be very difficult to burn a whole ship when the ship would move and thus the mirrors would have to be readjusted....
... however the same experiment was done in Greece which has the same climate conditions. An engineering professor, Mr. Sakkas, made the most simplistic experiment : he took bronze mirrors (i.e. what existed in those times) but had them made flat, and gave them to people to hold them by hands and aim their beams on a boat standing at several 100m - the boat actually covered by a paint that increased resistance to fire which was non-existing in Roman times... i.e. he overdid it with adding difficulty...
... yet the boat was in flames in no time!!! So Mythbusters-guys come a bit late.
Archimedes should have curved mirrors combined in an automatic system with added aiming tool on it while we can imagine that in the summer time there would be plenty of sun to have a nice beam to burn the Roman ships even if they were moving around. Romans would attack in day time as night naval attacks were quite complicated those times! -
Message 16
Posted by TimTrack (U1730472) on Wednesday, 17th November 2010
There are at least two hellenistic scientists known to have been occupied with the construction of steam cannonsÂ
I have requested academically referenced works that showed these to have been used.
Vague concepts are not enough. You claimed they were used.
When were they used ?
All you have are further assertions.
From a quick Google on Ctesibius, he seems to have invented a cannon using compressed air. You seem to be getting yourself confused. Again. I can see no record, on my short search, that this air cannon was used. Perhaps you could find it. -
Message 17
Posted by Triceratops (U3420301) on Saturday, 20th November 2010
A-N,
Itself the subject of a reconstruction and test firing, this one by Royal Armouries.
The bolt used was a copy of originals kept in the castle at Burg Eltz,weighed 4lbs and was fired to a distance of 150 metres by an 8oz charge.
This might be of interest ;
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Message 18
Posted by Anglo-Norman (U1965016) on Saturday, 20th November 2010
Ah yes, Triceratops, I remember seeing a programme about that. Thanks for the link! Very interesting.
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Message 19
Posted by Vizzer aka U_numbers (U2011621) on Wednesday, 21st December 2011
A treatise on kingship presented to Edward III c.1327 contains an image of what is often referred to as a 'vase gun', and has been claimed as the earliest illustration of a cannon. It is very similar to the Loshult gun, though loaded with a giant arrow rather than a roundshot.Â
The famous Walter de Milemete treatise. You can see the image of the gun here:
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