Fifi
emails with this (I rather like the idea...we could call it The Furrowed Brow or something. If you have a view, or additional ideas, you know what to do.
(No, I really did mean post a comment)
"Hello Eddie, and the rest of the PM team.
Back in December, before Christmas really kicked in, a few of us were kicking around an idea for the blog. How does this sound to you?
Many of us love the Beach - you can relax and chill out there. But it's not the place for heavy duty debate.
The daily thread often (but not always) suggests a serious topic around which we flock. But you choose it, and some of us feel constrained not to stray too far onto other subjects.
What about an equivalent thread to the Beach ... say, a club/pub/library sort of indoorsy place ... where the serious thinkers can thrash out any topic they like?
... you could go there for inspiration, before the 11am meeting, to see if there's a suggestion for a less-than-obvious news story.
... there would be less chance of we froggers missing a really good knockabout debate, having got lost in too-many serious threads elsewhere.
... the purely frivolous froggers (and anyone having a bad day!) would know to avoid it, because it's not going to suit them.
We the froggers would take care of the decor, house rules, smoking/nosmoking areas, catering, environmentally friendly heating etc. Trolls would be as ruthlessly ignored there as on the Beach.
And you the ±«Óãtv would have created an online venue for serious thinking -- surely a Public Service Broadcasting point or two to be scored at least! -- which would have grown organically out of actual practice by a well-developed community of listeners.
Could we? Could we? Hmmmm? Please?"
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Somebody talking on the radio re homeworking as I write this has just referred to an Eddie Mair screensaver.
Can I have one, please? And, would the programme maker be a frogger, perchance?
I'll get the details from the Radio 4 website and get back to you all.
Eddie, you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO famous!
See! If you want something doing - ask a busy person. Nice one Fifi.
Zoe Williams, Zoe Williams.
Come out come out wherever you are.
Re Fifi's email, yes, we did indeed kick this football around, and it was generally well received.
A pub called The Furrowed Brow (which will probably end up as The Furry Blog, or some such other Froggy naughtiness) would be great.
I think it would also be a good place for ±«Óãtv news producers to look in as they'd get an idea of what really exercises the minds of the Plebs.
I'd like to apply for membership of the club/pub/library, if I may? I'll bring along a nice deep leather chair that would fit in with the decor, and the log fire is just about to get started....
Could be:
The Fireside Chat
The Chimney Corner
The Burrow (quite cosy)
The Debating Chamber (a little formal perhaps)
Careless Talk (but not costing lives, obviously)
Froggers' Corner (with or without apostrophe!)
class idea Fifi. Don't think its a library though - too quiet. I think the Froggers are more of a Saloon Bar bunch.
Fifi - do you mean lots of discussions going on on one thread or a different one with each new week or day? Like the idea though.
)
OOh Big Sis (1) - an Eddie Mair screensaver? How lovely - do let us know how you get one please..........thank you!!
And Fifi - great idea - the beach can get a bit busy at times and I think its a good idea to have a seperate area to visit if you want to have a more serious debate going on. Agree a library is a bit quiet - a nice cosy pub with big squishy armchairs, log fire and then - for the warmer days - a lovely pub garden would be just dandy.
The Clapham Omnibus?
It would be good to be able to talk about what WE think is the news of the day and see how the politicians etc like it when they say "no one is interested in BLAH anymore".
I believe the name has a pedigree...
Fred: You could bring both your birds with you (I'm being flippant here, of course! And yes, I know, birds is not very PC ...)
The Burrow sounds interesting.
Re; BigSister and the Eddie Mair screensaver. Yes I heard that on the '±«Óãtvworking' programme, very strange !
Big Sister (1)
You can make any picture you like into your own screensaver if you have it saved as a digital image on your computer.
tomi
An idea that's nearly as fab as Fifi herself!
Big Sister (1)
I accidentally clicked on submit rather than review so my last message was incomplete. What I also wanted to say was try right clicking on for example the image at the top of this page. You should get an option "Save Picture as...". I can also let you know how to make it a screensaver but the details must be extremely boring to other readers.
tomi
Like a good pub, it could have whatever form the discussion takes, one topic, or many simultaneously (easy with opening words - address last or earlier comment, as already hapens.) The less formal structure the better, say I, a natural .
Furrowed Brow sounds good, but I'm sure this lot'll have some other fine ideas. Perhaps the archive could be called the Toilet Papers?
xx
ed
Monday January 08, 2007 at 17:21:39 GMT
Still gleefully hearing of travel chaos!
Jason: Just the ticket! In fact, I've a feeling I may have suggested it before .... Is this a case of great minds, d'you think?
Mind you, it is a bit London-centric. Perhaps if we just tweaked it to
The ClaPhaM omnibus?
There again, perhaps not.
Big Sis,
I posted the EM screensaver hearing on the Beach, but know nothing about it.
Surely, EM himself must know about it....
I think it is Eddie Mair, Screensaver. A superhero name with modern overtones.
Well can we not call it something based on some of those private clubs in London - they have libraries and bars and even dining rooms and smoking rooms - they're still allowed south of the Border aren't they?
We could just call it Frogs (monosyllabic llike Whites). But I'm sure others will have better ideas for names.
I think a new topic for debate each day - and could the froggers take it in turns to suggest it? Or would that be a bit difficult to organise?
Can anyone put us in touch with Zoe Williams? For it was she who mentioned said screensaver.
I note Eddie has started another thread. Is he blushing?
Fifi, our voices don't go unheard here do they?! I think I said I would like a bar with a library in the corner, that way I could go and look up all those references Ed leaves us & get back for a drink when my head starts spinning from all those references Ed leaves us... (x Ed.)
The Furrowed Brow is a stroke of brilliance, as mine often is when looking up all those... oh you know interesting things that other people say.
RECYCLING
Here in Luxembourg we have been charged per kilo for all rubbish put out as rubbish for the last 15 years.
We have a green bin for compostables, bags for plastics and cans, take bottles and paper to the village banks and have a black bin for everything else - and that is the one charged for.
Each black bin has a chip in it and is automatically weighed by the disposal truck.
There has never been any trouble with people putting rubbish in other people's bins.
Oh my word. It's twenty to five and I've only just seen this.
* blushes terminally *
This is so much quicker than the off-beach lilypad that led to Jonnie's website!
If I may be so bold as to summarise and perhaps massage a few of the refinements suggested above....
* a saloon bar, with comfy sofas or trendy bistro furniture to taste
* log fire in winter, beer garden in summer
* the best extractor-system in the world, allowing smokers and nons to co-exist
* venue renewed each week along with Beach, if ±«Óãtv resources allow
* froggers start discussions using deli-counter ticket system: first one of the week is A - Ruth Kelly, next might be B - jobs for retired prime ministers, next C - climate change ... etc. The letters should make it easier to run several topics on one thread, as we already do on other threads.
* first subject could be the name of the bar, put to a democratic vote by froggers
* pets allowed, provided they are well behaved. Air-extract should take care of any allergies!
How am I doing?
(Still so excited about having a thread named after me.... sorry Aperitif, we WILL get you there too!!!!)
Fifi (still blushing)
The idea you suggest is, in fact, a forum, is it not? I admit the ±«Óãtv message boards are a nightmare to negotiate (or were the last time I tried), but reproducing the concept in blog form seems a little odd.
For example, Today have a thread about Ruth Kelly today:
/dna/mbtoday/F5963509?thread=3789059
I'm not trying to be negative, just pointing out that there may be a better tool for what you're trying to achieve.
THREAD A (Fifi) = name of the bar/club/library thing, and other details
THREAD B (David Heal) = recycling
This is fun!
Fifi ;oD
Could we have a cake served for tea every day?
I've just made a victoria sponge for my arabic tutor...I suddenly realised I didn't have any biscuits in.
I would love to go to Frogs, the Furrowed Brow or whatever it's called. I think it would be great!!!
Bi Sis :
"Eddie, you are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO famous!"
Look to see the company he keeps! Our Eric does good works for chariddy too, then.
Marvelous idea for the "Furrowed Brow", FiFiFi. I can only do bland and/or flippant so I might stick to reading the beach and occasion furrows into the daily thing.
A pub would be great. If it were a library we'd be distracted by Toddler Time, Baby Bounce, and Coffee mornings....all well and good but not conducive to lively debate. Ed (15) has the right idea about the level of formality. It would be the ideal place to pick up the Recycling thread (22) for instance.
Jemima, you have a fair point. I hadn't thought of that.
However, I for one don't have time for message boards as well as the blog. There is one Radio 2 folk music thread that I'm supposed to keep an eye on, because it concerns my band, and just logging in and out is such a faff compared with keeping the PM blogs link open and hopping around it between jobs.
Believe me, this blog can take up all a person's spare time!
I'm hoping though that by organising it slightly differently, with fewer threads to scamper after at any one time, it'll be easier for people to engage with.
Hey, if I am proved wrong, we can always petition for a PM message board......
* Eddie groans and slaps his forehead *
Thanks for the input. Keep it coming. All ideas welcome -- this thing, if we do it, belongs to ALL of us.
Now... must go and cook something, before running out to a folk club.
;o)
Fifi xxx
Hi Jemima,
Say hello to Dave Wetzel. The difference seems to be that we froggers want to set the agenda. Today's boreds used to allow that (with mixed results) but the 'hosts' now set the agenda, and, although immediate, the 'discussions' are stilted and moderation is rubbish. (personal opinion)
Frogging seems to be (in part) about breaking out of confining ideas (and mixing frolic with furrowed brows). And a little anarchy is good for all of us.
ed
08/01/2007 at 18:30:06 GMT
Tomi: Yes, I know about the route you've suggested for making a screensaver, but the format of some pictures doesn't make for a good result.
Perhaps Lissa (who, I suspect, was the voice at 5.45 p.m. today???????) could take a nice digipic of Eddie for us and make it available so we can size up properly?
Lissa....... Lissa....... Are you there?
If it's a pub, my preferred name is The Frog and Lilypad, although I think a sort of "club" would be nice.
A warm fire, a few books and newspapers, some nice art on the walls (not fixed but exhibited) and sculptures. Lovely armchairs, radio for when we need inspiration, and catering!
Jemima I have often wondered about a forum, but this is a special place that we try to make a sort of forum without the forum type stuff. The best thing about it is the slowness. I have been a member of a few fora and sometimes they move too fast for the way we communicate here.
Thanks Fifi for your email to the wonderful Eddie. Thanks Eddie for publishing Fifi's brilliant suggestion.
Oh and I want the screen saver!
Mary
As usual, you've 'it it on the 'ead, Ed!
Fifi
;oD
.... and now I really AM going! See you sometime after closing time. I'll be humming some annoying folk tune or other, and horribly sober for a change.
Gillian (28) my idea of a library was more along the lines of one in a stately home than the local public library - huge fireplace, deep armchairs and lots of leather bound tomes.
Also without stretching the virtual thing too far, perhaps we ought to be careful a pub doesn't scare off those who would not enter one in the real world. Though heaven knows our conversations on the beach are alcoholic enough, but at least outdoors you can preserve a decent distant from the demon if you so wish.
Anne P. (34) Am I allowed to end every conversation "Of course, I was very very drunk at the time" in a Paul Whitehouse/The Fast Show stylee?
Actually, I think there's a splash of Port left from Christmas...
Hummmmmmm :-)
Floggers Plough
Furrowed brow..........
...A place for creative, friendly, philosophical debate in relaxed environment with alcohol...
.................The Phlough?
(..Or Flough perhaps?..... No matter but yes please).
Ah, the constantly changing Frog, where will we all end up?
I enjoyed the whole Zoe Williams experience, and hearing about her screensaver had me poking the dog in the shoulder whilst driving, just to make sure he was listening!
Mad, I know, I'll just go quietly.
Or maybe it ought to be.....
The Flow?
Valery,
Maybe we'll all end up in 'The Flinker'.
or 'The Flink'
The Flog, perhaps?
Oxbridge are the places for debating societies. This is far to highbrow. Though The Frogbridge Union sound okay.
I'm thinking, seriously...
... .. ... .. ...
(huh)
... .. ... .. ... .. .. . ....
...nope! 'S'not working is it?
Oh well...
niiiiiiice....... great idea and it happened just before Lissa left!
I love "The Frog and Lilypad" btw!! Though am concious that its staggering how much we all drink here (and I'm a lager lout!)
Of course, if the venue is to be a pub, then how about:
"Free House"
I should stop you know, I really should....
I'll go with ""
xx
ed
Hi gang, I'm back. With the wrong guitar. My mate Teresa went home with my (better) guitar and I've now got her (better) guitar case!
That caused a bit of panic at the pub, I can tell you...
I see we're all being very creative about the name. Jolly good.
Now, I am going to toddle downstairs and have my one glass of wine for this evening.
A very, very biiiiiiiiig one. . .
Fifi ;o)
...er .... I've just had the Malicious Posting message. After being out all evening! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!
.... and again. Hmmmmmm.
Oh sod it, I'll post in the morning. Please believe me, I TRIED to send this at [checks time] 11.45pm.
Dang pixies!
Make that a HOOOOOGE one.
The Daily Rivvett...? Sounds more like a newspaper though!
Talking about pubs, can someone answer something simple that I have always wanted to know, but never knew? (I would blame the fact that english is not my first language, but I suspect this is down to plain ignorance, really.)
What is the difference between a Free House and a Public House/pub? They seem to be the same thing from the outside, but why is there the distinction in the names? Is it something to do with a type of ownership?
I've been trying to track back to the original discussion which inspired this thread - Can any froggers out there, including EDDIE, of course, signpost me to it? I've looked back from 31st December to 5th December and cannot find it.
Eddie/Lissa: has it been temporarily removed while this debate is going on?
Belinda:
A Public House is the generic term for any Pub.
A Free House is a Pub that is 'Free of tie', i.e. can buy in whatever beers it likes.
In the past, many, if not most, pubs were 'tied' to a particular brewery and had to buy most, if not all, of their beer from that brewery, who usually owned the freehold of the property. The grouping of pubs owned by a brewery was known as the brewery's 'estate'. Nowadays, the picture is not quite the same for a variety of reasons, primarily because the brewing industry (one of the last industries to drag itself into the 20th century from its Victorian past) has had to find ways to cope in an increasingly competitive world. Competitive not only amongst breweries, but also with the increasing popularity of continental lager style beers and also, more insiduously, with other ways practices within the business world.
Many pubs nowadays belond to pub companies who own an 'estate' of pubs, but don't brew. They set up special deals with breweries and then get their pub managers/tenants to use beer lists based upon these deals they've set up. They take a percentage of the breweries' profit on the supply of these products as another income stream.
I hope this makes some kind of sense. I could go into more detail, but it is quite complex.
Oh, did I mention SO works in the brewing industry? And my mother used to work for a company whose logo - a coloured barrel! - became infamous in the industry. They were the first company to try to modernise their practices and, in the end, became a victim of those practices. And I did a major piece of research into the effect of these practices upon pub managers .........
Belinda -- as I understand it, a Free House is one where the licensee is free to offer any beer he/she chooses.
In the other kind, a Tied House, it's owned by a brewery (or a company that owns a brewery among other things) so he/she must sell the 'house' beer all the time; other beers are only allowed to be sold if sufficient house beers are selling well enough not to be damaged by the 'competition'.
A Public House is a generic term for any sort of pub.
Big Sister --- should be on December 19th somewhere. Among discussions about Mary's computer's dislike of wine, and a nasty episode with a troll.
I'll have a look, see if I can locate it.
Fifi xx
Belinda (47),
Traditionally, a public house/pub was usually tied to a brewer. Maybe the brewer owns the place, or there may be some other exclusive contractural link.
Modern legistlation has changed this link, as a Brewer can only own a relatively small number of pubs. However, there are also pub chains, and they would have contractural links with brewers.
Not withstanding that, a Free House is where there are no exclusive contractual links with any brewer, and it's the choice of the landlord which beers he stocks (or he may even brew his own). Not surprisingly, in these establishments, the landlord owns the house (or some other arrangement) himself, hence his freedom.
Big Sister -- it was on the Pre-Christmas Beach, here /blogs/pm/2006/12/the_prechristmas_beach.shtml
Scroll down to my (84) ... there's where it began, far as I can see.
Fifi
Big Sis (48) you see conspiracy where there is probably cock-up! I started this thread having been aware of seeing something on an earlier discussion. Fifi's emailed reminded me so posted that. Keep the ideas coming!
Big Sis
The Pre Christmas Beach, 18 December
Your post 89 and before and after. Would you believe I did that from memory?
PS Sorry this could take a while - apparently I'm being malicious AND too quick ,although I haven't said anything since yesterday
.
Belinda
I think the distinction is really between a Free House and a Tied House. Both are Public Houses.
A Free House is one that is not particularly tied to a single brewery chain in that it is free to sell whatever beers etc. that it chooses.
A Tied House will normally have its choice in beers limited to those brewed or supplied by the governing brewery.
This opinion is offered from N. Ireland where Tied Houses are almost non-existent - the vast majority of establishments being Free Houses. Unfortunately the beers all taste the same and but for a few exceptions there aren't any local beers.
Belinda (47);
Free Houses are a subset of Public Houses. Thay are not owned by a brewery and tenanted by the landlord, as so many still are. Brewery ownership forces them to sell the breweries particular product, not that of their rivals.
By contrast; Free Houses are normally privately owned and 'Free' to purchase and sell the products that they want to.
The brewery-owned ones are also know as 'Tied Houses'. Similar to 'Tied Housing' that goes with a job. Lose the job and lose your home with it.
Si.
Fifi and RJD: Thanks, both of you, for your help in tracking down the discussion. I'll now revisit.
Re my bit about the brewing industry, I herewith most 'umbly apologise for all the typos. The explanations from other froggers were considerably shorter and probably much clearer! Sometimes it doesn't pay to know too much .....
Eddie, could you perhaps post whatever you would have written in the newsletter on the blog. As I think someone else has said, it was a fine way to think in advance about what you might* be talking about on the programme.
*I say might because I can imagine things change in the fast paced, rapidly changing hub of the news which is the PM office, but somehow you always sound so relaxed that I can't imagine that!
Si,
"subset" Harrrumph! You pretentious person, making a logico-mathematical matter of a simple query.
BTW who can construct an EOR using the minimum number of NANDs?
;-)
Tuesday January 09, 2007 at 12:03:36 GMT
Hi Belinda. Now you must be among the best informed folk on this wee matter.
xx
Going back to the design of this new Froggers' Playground ... it could be a room of unusual shape, with each of its 'corners' having a style that promotes a different ambiance.
One could be the Library Corner, where I'll put my extensive reference books collection for perusal, plus SO's Arthur Mee, and perhaps leave a laptop plugged permanently to the Internet for those rare occasions when you can't find it in a book.
One could be the Club Corner. Deep leather sofas and chaises-long (sp?), high-backed armchairs and coffee tables.
In between the two, a huge crackling open fire, handsome fireplace, and plenty of logs.
Elsewhere, let's see, a bistro area ... drop in to read the papers, sip a latte, munch a bit of quiche. Don't need to talk to anyone if you'd rather just listen to others, but relax and chip in when ready .. or slip out again when you've had your fix of sensible debate and caffeine.
Other corners might be....?
Separate side-rooms for those who wish to watch and discuss Sport on the massive (but curiously energy-efficient) plasma TV screen, or to create a nostalgic atmosphere of smoke away from the air-extract system operating elsewhere.
An Oubliette for any trolls who wander in. Just say 'oubliette' and whoever's nearest the lever can give it a surreptitious tug...
Feel free to add/rip to shreds this latest thought!
Fifi xx
Fifi:
I'd go for a simple design that won't cause too many probs on the technical front. Perhaps a few 'tables' (i.e. different threads) where different topics could be discussed?
But can I put in a plea for the threads to stick to the topic under discussion? It would make it much easier than having to trawl through random comments on other topics. That's something we do on the main Blog, fine, no probs if it helps raise new issues, but once the issue is defined, perhaps we could keep the 'tables' on message?
I've never thought Simon pretentious.
constructing an "EOR using the minimum number of NANDs"
Now, that IS pretentious!
Re EOR and NANDs
I assume it's pretentious but I wouldn't know as it is totally incomprehensible to me!
Motto:
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, then baffle them with bull*hit!
;-)
xx
ed
Big Sister (62): So, instead of saying, for instance...
Big Sister (62):
...before saying whatever it is, we could say something like...
Table A - Pub design:
... that would work!
Fifi xx
Croakers' Corner?
After mentioning Free House I wonder if anyone wonders about that other corner of a park in London...?
uh oh
I always learned it was XOR. (Isn't EOR one of Pooh's friends?)
XOR is "Exclusive Or", a logical connective. If you have two variables, A and B, and one of them is True and the other is False then A XOR B is True. A XOR B is otherwise false. i.e it is a teast that A and B are not the same value.
NAND is "Not And". "And" being a logical connective - if both A and B are true then "A and B" is True. It is False otherwise.
For NAND, if at least one of A and B are False then "A NAND B" is True. If both A and B are true then "A NAND B" is false.
I have no idea why that matters, though I am impressed that a course from eons ago has had a use outside of a maths paper.
All,
At my age, I'm not too sure about 'Croaker's Corner'.
As to pretension, I hope my clumsily cheeked tongue was apparent. I'm American, so please make allowances.
Jason has described the boolean logic rather well, if with a bit of redundance. The frivolous thought was spurred by knowing that, in practical electronic logic systems for some reasons (probably got a job-lot from some sweatshop), NAND gates are commonest, and that all others can be constructed using them. An interesting exercise, for the terminally bored.
xx
ed
Tuesday January 09, 2007 at 15:32:12 GMT
Oh well, that's Fifi knocked off the list of Recent Entries then.
Looks as if Eddie's megalomaniac tendencies have finally slipped to the surface!
Fifi ;o)
So this would be the right place to discuss the discussion on the gay rights package?
As far as you might have some sympathy for the B&B owner who didn't want a gay couple staying in his establishment; what if every B&B owner has the same views would he be happy with the couple having to sleep rough?
Fifi: Not quite sure what you meant in that post about Table A. But it is rather late (sorry, I was out on other business all afternoon and have only just back to this thread). Can you elucidate?
And, do I gather that's a general agreement with the idea?
X
Sorry, Big Sister, I should have shown my working.
I was thinking that 'tables' could be our shorthand for threads. Instead of saying 'Mrs Trellis (947)' to preface a comment, allowing readers to navigate back to the original comment, one could say 'table R: rowlocks' ... thus keeping the subjects clear and separate and not too cluttered.
You had said something about sitting at tables in the club/pub/library discussing one thing per table.
So, in a nutshell, as usual I'm in full agreement with you!
Hope I'm making better sense now. Apols!
Fifi xx
Gonzo - the B&B / gay rights discussion is happening on the Twenty Thousand thread from yesterday.
Does anyone fancy setting up a prototype for the Furrowed Brow (or whatever we eventually decide to call it) on an old thread?
May I suggest one of the November 24 ones, on the completely rational grounds that it was my birthday and I achieved the meaning of life....?
Fifi xx
Are we ready to try a dry run?
If so, join me here
/blogs/pm/2006/11/i_have_a_small_but_growing.shtml
and bring some firelighters. I can't get the fire to light!
Fifi xx
fifi, I love your virtual idea, perfect.