±«Óătv

Of course it is not the mission of the government to leave the world as they find it and they are busily attaching electrodes to the exhumed body of the poor law. Europe is still a massive fault line in the Tory landscape and its interface with the Lib Dems - it is inevitable that it shear violently soon.

Back to more conjecture based journalism then. Oh well. The information was good while it lasted.

Is this not the same George Osborne who praised the Irish economy only a couple of years ago? I wonder if they are also now going to keep trotting out the line that the UK economy problems are purely a fault of the last government, rather than a global recession, which was caused by George's friends in the city.

He is completely clueless on the economy and should be challenged over his attempt to rewrite history.

OK so we are bailing out the Irish because we hold the majority of their debts anyway. I get that bit, but can anyone tell me the trade between us and the various EU States? I have heard that the EU is our largest trading partner, BUT that it is a deficit not a surplus. So surely that's a bad thing?
If only we could have a referendum on the EU, at least then the true facts would come out(along with the usual lies). Oh and wonder if the Irish would still vote for the EU now they are stuck with a currency they can't control and an economy that needs to devalue by around 40%? The Greeks have the same problem, with Spain and Portugal not far behind.

Since when has Ireland been our principal export market ????

How many firms have chosen Ireland over the UK because of its punitive corporation tax and how has this help us ????

There is more to this than meets the eye and the chancellor should have to explain every detail before we go and borrow more money than the savings from the savage cuts we are already facing.

Whilst i am not against the Irish at all there are times when you have to look after your own first and that doesnt seem to be the case here.We are after all committed by our last government to substantial aid through existing schemes, why do WE need to contribute more ??? and what are his plans when the next Euro zone country fails ??? There is something very wrong here and its about time someone forced them to come clean about the whole financial situation.

When it comes to Europe - never under-estimate the ability of the Conservative Party to stab itself in the back!

Don't believe me? - ask John Major!

(From the previous blog that was closed early)

#35 sagamix

It will come as no surprise that I disagree with the tenor of your post, which I don't find to be one of your more thoughtful ones.

The global economic crisis (probably more accurately described as the North Atlantic crisis, as the Chinese call it) was a systemic failure that was the responsibility of governments as much as the banks.

Extending loan facilities to Ireland is not expenditure (see a previous post of mine above), and I'm not sure it increases our debt. It is part of a deficit reduction programme as it should improve the Irish government's ability to recapitalise the banking system, which will have a direct impact on the value of our shares in our own nationalised banks.

As you know, the Conservative Party supported the UK banking recapitalisation (as did I) so I don't see that consensus has suddenly broken out now that Labour are in opposition.

Finally, I have been reading the comments pages of the 'Irish Times' recently and what struck me was a sophisticated level of understanding that is rarely shown on UK sites.

Well its interesting how the wolf in sheep's clothing is shown by the ±«Óătv,to be helping out the old buddy called Ireland. Correct me if Im wrong but doesn't history show a long list of countries who borrowed money from Britain and are still in debt today and still paying large sums of money into the coffers of British based banks.For instance, Brasil still pays off debts which were created by the British building their railways which carried the gold from the mines to the coast, the very gold that was used by the Portuguese to pay off their debts to Britain.
Not content with encouraging other countries to be eternally in debt, these same institutions want to attach the same heavy chain around the necks of its young students. Driven by the obsessive need for growth, these institutions are destroying everything around them. And I can hear you ask what are they destroying??? Freedom from the chains of debt.
Stephen

Yes, Osborne must be extremely careful about anything he does or says regarding the dreaded "Europe". Civil warfare in the tory party is the very last thing we want to see.

You have to read this about George and his marvellous economic medicine, still available

`Irish stew in the name of the law' and other lame old jokes.

The tectonic plates on Europe are shifting and the illusion is slipping. I like it when illusions crack and fade as soon the truth is allowed to break through into the light of day.

There is a lot wrong with the EU but this should not detract us all from the need for closer cooperation within Europe. A retreat into little nationalism will do us no good and be about as futile as those fellows demonstrating outside the government offices in Dublin last night.

The most revealing thing about this crisis is how the elites are being dragged along by events. A crisis in Europe and all the Eurosceptics nod their heads and say I told you so not long after they have all trotted happily into the division lobbies voting for more Euro-centralism. Where is their alternative? They are nothing more than paper-tigers.

The discussion on Europe must become more proactive. Most of us are agreed that there are things wrong with the Commission, there are things wrong with the Parliament, there are things wrong with the concept of subsidiarity and the Euro sadly is not much more than a confection cooked up for Christmas and birthdays. So what can be done about it? Nothing it seems but retreat into a past which is even more dismal than now.

The European public has been forced into the role of passive spectators in a tedious game of musical chairs as if we were the first to be evicted from a chair. One would hope that the Eurosceptics would try to change the rules of the game: fat chance! But then why should they as they have their ticket for the gravy-train. So they have become just another bunch of useless political windbags: much like those they condemn.

Hi Nick, whilst I can agree we need to help others out. I do wonder if this is right. Original loans were taken out on the value of property, and now with the collapse, the loans the Irish banks made became a liability. So with no cash, and a fair while till assetts rise in price, is this good sense for us to go more into debt, when probably, Ireland cannot pay back.

Over how long are these loans outstanding. What interest do we pay on them, as we don't have spare cash. Do we have priority over the EU loans. What if they default. If I cannot borrow more than 3.5 times my income, how badly is Ireland bowwowing now ? Afterall, as has been clearly pointed out, this is not a bail out, these are just more loans.

Can they repay them, do we think really its just a holding game for 3 years till proprty rises, and so we get our money back then. If they don't pay, do we get Donegall. We all seem to get the headlines Nick, but its the details I'm interested in.

With respect to the EU, this is a genuine case of 'we're all in it together', so it is helpful that the Government realise this and are acting accordingly, despite, for the Tories, local difficulties with its Euroseptic wing.

After all, nobody really wants to be on the wrong side of history.

Bill Emmott, writing in todays Times is really on the money/euro with his analysis and despite some clunkly comments from dear Mutti regarding Eurobonds and an unspecified 'haircut', she will surely come to the rescue, as Emmott predicts.

How ironic, given the history ... Europe saved by the German Chancellor.

So after 13 years of crash gordon at the helm of economic policy the Irish economy basedon more debt than us is our biggest export customer ?

In economic terms export to China or Irland ? better to have a smaller share of exporting to china than a large one to Ireland.

So our biggest export customer will not want any of our goods/services for another decade, so where does that lead the esport lead recovery then, Gordon did leave use with a right old mess then.

Best start looking at home, saga get your mates from the state benifits system picking strawberries cause thats where the problems will be next
displacement of the uncontrolled immigration policy that was to make the minimum wage work ?

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9#

Considering theres one bubbling under on the benches opposite mate, yes, I thought one would have been quite enough to keep the likes of you occupied for now...

According to the Bank of International Settlements the Irish banks owe $149 billion to the UK Banks. Dave and George giving money to Ireland is not an EU issue it is necessary to protect our banks.

What I would like to know is how much in bonuses was paid to the bankers that wrote the loans to Ireland?

If the Irish economy goes belly-up because of a few loudmouthed little-Englanders then they'll certainly make their mark on Europe, and probably 'change the world as they find it'.

And there's a rumour that our new best friends, the Chinese, are busy saving up large amounts of dollars in order to sweep up Irish bonds if the opportunity arises. Still... it's probably only a rumour, and anyway it's a Eurozone problem so why should we worry?

Post 14 are you George Osborne as you also seem to have no idea of what happened in the last 13 years, read hs fabulous piece in the Times post 10 to see what George wantedus to get involved in!

Re 17 - the names and current addresses of said bankers would also be useful.

Oh dear! It's all Greek to me . . .

19#

Give it a rest eh Tom, no-ones listening. You telling IR that he doesnt know what happened in the last 13 years is a bit rich, isnt it?

#19 Tom Elliott

In the article you quoted Osborne highlighted three attributes of the Irish economy: world-class education, high rates of innovation, and an attractive climate for investment.

All three seem perfectly valid points to me, and as far as I can see still remain true.

On another susbject, Ireland is probably ahead of other European countries in owning up to problems in their banking system. They may well recover before some of the others.

18 Its_an_Outrage

If the Irish economy goes belly-up because of a few loudmouthed little-Englanders then they'll certainly make their mark on Europe, and probably 'change the world as they find it'.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Frau Merkel's loose talk about haircuts has done far more to damage confidence in the Irish economy than commentary from the UK.

When do we get tired of the bankstas and their political whores screwing everything up?

I hate that term, "Eurosceptic". I am not sceptical about the EU. I know it exists and I know what its plans are for dominating and extinguishing nation states. I wholly disapprove of this, so I am not Eurosceptic at all, I am a Euro-realist and I am a patriot of Great Britain.

Europhiles may consider me a "little Englander", but that just highlights their small-minded prejudice and bigotry.

I would rather be a Great British patriot, than a traitor to this country, which every supporter of the EU is.

So flat broke UK is going to rustle up Billions of pounds that it doesn’t have & lend it to another country that is flat broke & doesn’t have any money either?

You couldn't make this up if you tried.

Guess its Osborne’s turn to visit the Magic Money Tree...hang on; weren’t these guys supposed to be against this sort of thing?

The Irish Republic is not the UK's best export market.

This is like saying Scotland is England's best export market.

It is a coincidence of history that Ireland finds itself a separate country.

Get real. It is actually part of the UK economy, just with a bit more devolution.

@27 Yes it appears that a country will lend money it doesn't have to a country who cannot pay it back.

However, another way of looking at it is perhaps that we know that Ireland is receiving 57 billion euros from the EU, so they can pay us our loan back, plus interest, out of that, and by doing so we recoup the billions in rebate that Blair gave away.

It is a high risk strategy as we do not know if Ireland will default on that loan.

Frau Merkel did cause a mini-panic in these febrile markets when she said that Euro bondholders had to 'share the pain', without exactly specifying exactly how painful that would be.

Nevertheless, the Germans seem to be slowly coming around to the view that the Euro cannot be a Deutschmark Mark II - i.e. a rock-solid currency - mainly no-thanks to those inconsiderate PIIGS.

The markets have been 'looking through' the Euro to the underlying sovereign States for some time, hence the wildy differing rates of interest on the Eurobonds of countries as diverse as Germany and Greece.

Therefore, in the end, assuming the worst does not happen - an unravelling of the Euro and by implication, the EU, the Euro itself will be a weaker currency vis-a-vis the other major currencies, and may lose one or two of the 'problem' countries, which is no more than they deserve for either lying on entry to the Euro or being profligate.

Incidentally, in happier times, the Irish were wont to call the Euro the 'yo-yo'.

PS. Can't Irish tax-dodger Paul Hewson aka 'Bono' single-handedly bail out Eire? I hear that he already owns half of Dublin and with these very weak property prices, he can probably afford to buy the rest.

"Irish Stew" (2) - Re: Nick Robinson blog.

Ordinary peoples' taxes bail out banks. Banks continue to behave badly.

Why do we need banks who trade on invisible money and fake leverage = high bonus returns for a tiny and exclusive club?

Can we safely assume that banks always ruled the world - but now that's not enough - they hold entire nations to ransom?

Looking at some of the gleeful comments from Eurosceptics on this and other forums I'm reminded of a saying I once heard "An Englishman will burn his bed to catch a flea!" If the Euro were to fall apart there would likely be a massive economic shock and Britain, to borrow Ken CLarke's phrase, would be badly damaged by the sharapnel. I normally have a lot of time for Douglas Carswell but his call that Britain should be helping Ireland to leave the Euro is nonsense, for a start it's a matter for the Irish government and people to decide and if Britain did make it's aid conditional on Ireland leaving the Euro the other EU members would refuse to make their contributions. Britain's stock in ireland is rising pretty rapidly ATM in comparison to Merkel who is seen as having precipitated the crisis with her recent comments. Carswell's idea would be seen as colonial type interference.

#19. As was said to you earlier Osborne was referring to the policies which gave birth to the Celtic Tiger, highly skilled workers plus low tax economy. Ireland's great misfortune was that Ahern and his gang of gombeens got back in in 1997 and immediately began to create the property bubble for the benefit of their developer paymasters. Many of these developments were funded by secret and very likely illegal loans from the likes of Anglo-Irish and Irish Nationwide to Golden Circles of devleopers. How was Osborne supposed to know that? You'll find that very few people in Ireland realized the scale of the bank liabilities.

Ireland would have been OK had it kept to the Cletic Tiger model, instead it went for a turbo charged version of Gordonomics and has ended up in the mess it is today.

When you have all finished ranting about the Crisis of Capitalism take a little time to think of the people at the bottom of the pile, those who are suffering. Donegal is not a bargaining chip.

Whilst we are the subject of loans, can someone tell me just exactly in ÂŁ's & p's just what the UK government is owed in outstanding loans. It's just that I heard that a well known mobile phone company owes the UK government a load of do$h. So if there are more, does this mean that if all this owed money was paid into UK Treasury coffers right now, in an instance this country deficit would be in reverse. No, what we do is lend someone else more of our money....................

"What I would like to know is how much in bonuses was paid to the bankers that wrote the loans to Ireland?"

Wouldn't it be nice if the British taxpayers actually knew who they were, how much they were paid in bonuses and when they were going to pay it back to the taxpayer?

I am getting a bit fed up with bankers and directors messing up their businesses then walking away with a bonus.

Ref 22 Fubar your point sums it up exactly, people are rewriting history on here to fit their political point and are not prepared to listen. No one can claim to have seen what was happening until it hit and suddenly everyone was wise to it.

Up until sub prime came along everyone was pretty happy after 10 years of economic growth driven by greater level of personal and governmental borrowing.

Just because people on here keep on repeating the current mantra does not make it true!

At 11:26am on 22 Nov 2010, Fubar_Saunders wrote:
19#

Give it a rest eh Tom, no-ones listening. You telling IR that he doesnt know what happened in the last 13 years is a bit rich, isnt it?
------------------------------------------------------------------
Careful F_S, you're going tribal! I, and a lot of other posters, are listening. George 'Ireland is a shining example' Osborne, David 'we will spend more than Labour' Cameron or Gordon 'we have ended boom and bust' Brown doesn't represent much of a choice really does it?
Have you read post 14? Tom was being way too kind. BTW I hear that George may be auditioning for a part in the HOC pantomime (sic), Cinderella. Can't make his mind up whether to be Baron Stoneybroke of Great Britain or the Fairy Godmother of Eire. So he's decided to be both.

#19 Nope wrong, I'm not GO, do not care what he wants to do either.
Certainly now what happened in the last 13 years, such things like IR35 its in the name mate, lack of helicopters and other defence issues too, now all about that as well. Then we could talk about the family courts and the protests and waste of taxpayers money for the 13 years etc.

Which bit of Crash gordons mistakes do you want to debate.

the point is given that Ireland is our biggest export customer and they have no money what will it do to the UK? After 13 years of Crash at the tiller our biggest export customer is whom Ireland and how do they compare to china in GDP etc.

Me thinks the export lead recovery is going to have problems then.

Therefore its going to be a case of UK jobs for UK people because of the result of the dissastorius imigration and minimum wage policies.

Do you want to live 12 in a house like the Poles do?

"What I would like to know is how much in bonuses was paid to the bankers that wrote the loans to Ireland?" - cassandra @ 17

A lot, I'm sorry to say, and what's worse it continues. Grand larceny. One day we will look back at what this "industry" was allowed to get away with over these last couple of decades and we will marvel.

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34 redrobb

I heard that a well known mobile phone company owes the UK government a load of do$h.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Vodafone has settled its disputed claim with HMRC, so you can't be referring to the ridiculous ÂŁ6bn figure that was calculated on the back of a fag packet by someone at Private Eye and is not supported by any serious analysis.

Let's see I have ÂŁ7 Billion to invest... do I invest it in a business that guarantees a return or do I invest it in a risky proposition where I can make a healthy profit but might not see the money again...

Having removed the ÂŁ7 Billion from the British economy forcing cuts in services and jobs here, the government has pumped it into the Irish economy instead.

Seems to me the Irish got the Potatoes and the British got the blight! Still I am reassured Nick that as long as the coalition remains in power your Irish Stew will never be short of NEEPS!

We ain't got no dosh - so which idiot lent us the money to lend to Ireland?

Irish stew, nah, the celtic tigers haven't eaten that for some time, its Dublin Bay Pawns, they had their Chips some time ago, came with a Dip.

24. At 11:36am on 22 Nov 2010, AS71 wrote:

Frau Merkel's loose talk about haircuts has done far more to damage confidence in the Irish economy than commentary from the UK.

Very possibly true, but I was referring to the narrow-sighted unwillingless of the anti-EU factions to assist Ireland. I hope you'll agree that the main thing that's damaged confidence in the Irish economy is, basically, the fact that they owe a lot of money and don't appear to have any.

I am not convinced that 'Wallpaper George' and 'Dozy Danny' his number two and leading Lib/Dem stooge have the ability to deal with such important matters. George's experience in the 'real' world, apart from admiring the way the Irish have run their economy, has been as a professional bag carrier for failed Tory grandees and caller at Bullingdon Club bingo nights.Dozy Danny ,it is reported was chief sweeper up at some obscure Highland quango.What a shambles.

37#

Funnily enough, look at 36 and what Tom says. Everyones rewriting history to suit their own political ends. For some reason today, we seem to have a bunch of people who have found their way over from the New Statesman blog all fired up and full of hatred and not particularly getting at the key questions that need to be asked:

1) Should this be put before parliament before offering any such loan?

2) What are the terms and conditions of this loan likely to be?

3) What is the exposure of British institutions to Eires crisis?

4) What is the breakdown of the loan - how much from our membership of the IMF, how much from our part in the EFSF, how much bilateral?

5) What is Ireland being told/asked to change about its financial policies in the meantime? If its 12.5% Corporation Tax rate is forced to change, what is going to happen to the businesses and jobs that were created and grew in the republic - are they going to stay and see it out? - or as Slugger O'Toole ventures, could some of them be tempted into moving into Northern Ireland to reduce dependency on state provided jobs and rebalancing their local economy?

6) What is going to happen to Irish Immigration & Emigration? 200,000 Poles have gone back from Eire, what about everyone else? Their cities are just as multicultural as ours are, what is going to be the effect on them with unemployment running at 14%?

7) If our levels of exports to Eire have been overstated as bryhers claims, what exactly are they and what industries do they directly affect? Is it, as Slugger O'Toole says, mainly construction and foodstuffs/supermarket commodities, or what?

8) Should our contribution to the bail-out come from DFID's budget?

9) What is the potential impact, if any of Sinn Fein looking to make more of an impact in the Dail?

10) Is this going to be enough to address contagion within the Euro?

11) Have Merkel and the other EU leaders (especially Merkel's talk of giving the Irish bondholders a haircut, which part of me agrees with) done as much to precipitate this outcome and effectively engineered bringing the crisis to a head?

12) Where do the Chinese fit in to all this?

All we're getting instead of discussing these important matters is simplistic, tribal, schoolboy, "lets-bash-Osborne-cos-he's-a-rich-kid and-I-hate-tories-like-wot-my-mum-and-dad-are-innit" garbage. Its pathetic, its small minded and it shows breathtaking ignorance of the wider picture. Some may say, well thats politics. Maybe it is. If it is, it sucks.

No-one should be in the least bit surprised at the path the coalition is taking. They're Europhiles. Red Tories/Blue Labour. More of the same as the last lot, but without the Clueless Cheese & Chianti-avoiding megalomaniac at the helm.

For gods sake, dont say you're that surprised. No-one is surprised about Osbornes four year old admiration for what the Celtic Tiger appeared to be achieving when it was overheating. Even Gordon "I saved the world" Brown didnt see it coming, so what makes you think the son of a wallpaper firm owner would? Fundamentally, there was nothing wrong with having a low CT policy, providing your government spent its receipts accordingly. It created jobs, it attracted business and it transformed Eire's economy from 2nd world agricultural to a higher level. Where Fiana Fail failed was in profligate spending and woefully poor capital project management and in bank regulation and risk management. Thats got stuff all to do with Osborne or Darling, or anyone on this side of the water.

I dont see any shining lights on this side of the Irish sea who have any rights whatsoever to claim the moral highground where that is concerned, be it Brown, be it Cameron, that blithering fool Cable or whoever.

Too many people talking too much garbage about subjects they know too little about. So, if that makes me tribal, so be it. The truth hurts sometimes.

39#

So, Saga, if they're that tainted, are you going to hand yours back? The ones you earned all those years when you were wrestling with your conscience? Going to put it all in a jiffy bag and send it to HMG in order to make sure the poor dont suffer?

Going to take a leaf out of a certain Paul McCartney's book?

"Gonna give all away/to a registered charity/all I need is a pint a day"

What I really fear is the extent to which the Pro EU fanatics will go to keep their cherished dreams alive. Zealots rarely have time or the inclination to adress reality - the Euro project on a basic economic anaysis just does not hold water. Relatively low interest rates suited the very developed econmies of northern Europe but were unsustainable for the weker economies - anyone who disagreed were labelled as pariahs or more commonly as Eurosceptics.

The disparity of the economies amongst 27 nations is huge: even if you consider the richest two (UK and Germany) it is like chalk and cheese. The East European nations have also had to overcome decades of inattention to basic infrastructure. Instead of one Euro the EU would have been better off with a multi-layered Euro and with a different interest pegged for each level. But the political will had to subvert common sense and rewrite Economics 101.

Just last week when this crisis was unfolding the oligeneous Barroso was lamenting that the Budget increase was only 2.9 percent instead of six. All EU memebers have instigated austerity measures but the EU still want their cake and eat it plus whatever else they can fleece out of the little people. I sense that the likes of Barroso are desperate enough to cause even more misery upon ordinary Europeans in the form of very high unemployment if it means that the Euro dream can stay alive.

If.."we are skint!!" How can Britain afford to loan the Irish republic an additional ÂŁ7 billion? This being on top of our EU contibution to the so called bail out. Just where is this money comming from? The UK economy needs this money, but all we hear from our government is "cuts, cuts,cuts"...I am reminded of the frase; "charity begins at home!"

46 Its_an_Outrage

I hope you'll agree that the main thing that's damaged confidence in the Irish economy is, basically, the fact that they owe a lot of money and don't appear to have any.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is certainly true.

Ireland also did little to help itself by trying to defy gravity for so long. This must have made it impossible to agree a deal behind closed doors and announce to the markets in a calm manner.

IR35 @38 and earlier.
NR's lack of clarity may have misled you. Ireland is not Britains 'biggest export customer'. I think he is referring to the EEC being our biggest export customer but could have expressed this more clearly. On 2009 figures (Guardian Data Blog)- USA 33bn, Germany 25bn, France 18bn, Holland 17bn, Ireland 15bn (around 6/7% of total).

Our governments need to be much more focused on the tanglible UK national interest and far less concerned about concerned with intangibles, such as personal and national egos, ideals, relationships, etc.

Two great examples:

1. Labour handed over responsibility for the regulation of the City of London to the EU, and the job has been eagerly seized by a Frenchman, who will now work in France's national interest, attempting to shift the jobs and wealth of the City of London into the eurozone and particularly Paris. Yes, we did a bad job of regulating the excess, but better to have control of regulation and get it right than trust a.n.other to act in our national interest. As an interesting aside, I believe that one of the reasons why Ireland and its banks could no longer borrow at reasonable cost, but the UK can, is because very many of the people making the decision are based in the UK and have a personal stake in the UK economy not collapsing. Would a French 'City' be as sympathetic?

2. Why are we not demanding an end to Ireland's predatory corporation tax rate? To put this into blunt perspective, the disgraceful and unpatriotic decision of Martin Sorrell of WPP to move the tax HQ of his company to Dublin rather than London, purely to benefit from the lower corporation tax rate, costs the UK each year more than enough to pay for the replacement of all of the Army's inadequate Land Rovers each and every year. Who knows, it might even be enough to pay for some planes for our aircraft carriers. Oh, but I forgot, we're borrowing them of the French. The same France that talks communitaire but acts in a ruthless and pragmatic fashion in the national interest.

The French know it isn't europhile or eurosceptic: it is about getting the best result for UK plc.

47 IPGAPB1

Insightful as ever from your good self.

Doubtless you will be enlightening us on why an ex postman and television journalist could make a better fist of it.

I look forward to your (extraordinary) rendition of this.

It's a great time to be a tory...

44. Shropbrief wrote:
We ain't got no dosh - so which idiot lent us the money to lend to Ireland?
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Or rather, how many more people are going to have to lose their jobs to pay for this?
Looks like “Austerity” is being put on the back burner for a week or so; the spirit of Brown lives on.

Every cloud has a silver lining for somebody.

So, into the Irish stew steps ... Gerry Adams.

Adams is, in my opinion, a very astute politican indeed and has perfectly timed his entry into the politics of Eire.

Something for our Nick to chew over?

This is the economics of the kindergarten. Borrowing money to lend out to those who aren't credit worthy enough to borrow the money themselves. George Osborme says 'Ireland is a friend in need'. Given the parlous state of our own economy perhaps a better adage for him to remember would be 'charity begins at home'. It all points to the basic problem with the Euro - it is impossible to successfully merge the currencies of countries with different tax rates, different average incomes, different economic strengths and weaknesses, different make up of GDP. Of course the Eurocrats always knew this, but powered on with their expensive experiment in the hope that all would be OK in the end, bringing them extra personal profile and the command of a super-state. As always, the taxpayers are expected to pay - how long will it be before the German people rebel against all this and demand that the mark be brought back. It'll be the strong not the weak who bring about the end of the Euro, and not a moment too soon. Unfettered trading relationships is one thing. Single currency, like uncontrollable worker transfers between states is quite another, just spells trouble.

48 Fubar

Even the analysis in the more erudite part of the MSM is carefully measured and pointed in certain directions. Reports are avialble that discuss some of your twelve bullet points but certainly not all. For all the headline news since the banking/credit crunch crisis started the transparent detail about say RBS's exposure loan book etc lies between murky and opaque. Given that as taxpayers we have a majority ownership stake it is surprising that the banking regulators and HMG have taken such a hands off stance.

I would suggest that is the lack of hard facts out in the open (whether suppressed by the banks or media) that causes bloggers to snipe in tribal fashion. Until we have have a better understanding of who owes to whom, bank to bank and country to country it is no wonder all politicians wander around hesitatingly like lemmings fearing their next step will topple them off a cliff.

As to UK's current crop of politioians when it comes to EU they all sing from the same hymn sheet. They most of all do not want any sensible debate as they would soon be found wanting. I feel for the Irish and the Greeks as they did nothing wrong but it is their politicians who did nothing but accept the EU legislation on the nod. I note that the most ardent Europhile UK politicos from Thatcher's era have developed severe chronic laryngitis - quelle surprise!

This is the economics of the kindergarten. Borrowing money to lend out to those who aren't credit worthy enough to borrow the money themselves. George Osborme says 'Ireland is a friend in need'. Given the parlous state of our own economy perhaps a better adage for him to remember would be 'charity begins at home'. It all points to the basic problem with the Euro - it is impossible to successfully merge the currencies of countries with different tax rates, different average incomes, different economic strengths and weaknesses, different make up of GDP. Of course the Eurocrats always knew this, but powered on with their expensive experiment in the hope that all would be OK in the end, bringing them extra personal profile and the command of a super-state. As always, the taxpayers are expected to pay - how long will it be before the German people rebel against all this and demand that the mark be brought back. It'll be the strong not the weak who bring about the end of the Euro, and not a moment too soon. Unfettered trading relationships are one thing. Single currency, like uncontrollable worker transfers between states quite another, just spells trouble.

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I listened to Nick Robinson and another pro-EU ±«Óătv reporter on Today this morning complaining that EU-sceptics want to use issue where France, Germany and others want an increase in central power ove eurozone countries to negotiate things in our interest, e.g. a reduction in Brussels power over us. That is an important discussion and the ±«Óătv should be interviewing two politicians on different sides, and not presenting the views of two of its own pro-EU reporters on the topic as neutral opinion.

The Today program piece by Nick Robinosn was very biased and deserving of a offocial compliant to the ±«Óătv. The corporation (as least its Westminster pack) still does not seemd to have learnt to be neutral in its reporting of EU issues.

"I would suggest that is the lack of hard facts out in the open (whether suppressed by the banks or media) that causes bloggers to snipe in tribal fashion. Until we have have a better understanding of who owes to whom, bank to bank and country to country it is no wonder all politicians wander around hesitatingly like lemmings fearing their next step will topple them off a cliff."

You may well be right there, ECB. And ultimately, it goes back to something that I think we're both agreed on, in that there is a critical absence of true leadership. Certainly from the UK and I dare say the Irish electorate may well think the same thing.

No55 Rocking Robin,
I have no idea why you would think that I should have a view about the ability of the two gentlemen to which you refer. However, I rather fancy they will not have the slighest interest in the thoughts of the lunatic asinine brigade, and other species of politically thick Tories.

47#

Whilst what you say is (in your own inimitable fashion) correct, I'm afraid the prospects for visionary, experienced, calming leadership elsewhere do not look particularly good. History lecturing, Trade Union Stewardship and being bag carriers to said party alumni do not exactly have our cups overflowing with confidence.

Such is the political class that our apathy has bred over the last 20 years. We got the political class we deserved.

Hope your recovery is going well Sout.

IPGABP1

'Politically thick' ... is this some kind of compliment?

If Blair, Brown, Mandleson and Co were supposed to have 'political intelligence' how come they made such a mess of the country?

In your own time...

It's a great time to be a tory...

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As a Irishman I thank you for your generous loan. We know it's essentially a matter of self interest for you, but thank you none the less.

Our governing party Fianna Fail practices what we call 'Gombeen Politics'. The politics of 'the stroke'. Ask any Irish you meet and this description of Fianna Fail will instantly resonate with them. Over the past number of years several of them have been hauled before tribunals and courts. Quite a few have resigned and a couple have been committed to jail. Several court cases are ongoing.

The vast majority of us will now make sure that this party will not see the inside of Government buildings for a very long time.

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I am completely fedup with the continuous discussions that goes on about the severve finacial difficulties faced by a significant number of developed countries. Why should ordinary tax payers and citizens have to suffer the most pain financially. The Banks are continuing to pay extremely large bonusness and/or give large basic salary increases to mitigate "Bonus Tax".
To make sure the Bank's pay their fair share towards overcoming the difficulties they have caused, a simple solution would be for all countries that bailed out Banks to require all major Bank's to "pay annually into a National (or International?) Recovery Fund an amount equal to the total Salary and Bonus payments they make, for example, to Director's, Manager's and Trader's".

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