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Sir, Why are we doing this nostalgia thing over Cutty Sark? It was vehicle of one of the most divisive periods in our history. The sun never set on the British Empire and in the 21st century shouldn't we be a teeny bit ashamed of that period? We plundered the world of valuable resources and looted countries to benefit the Empire and at the same time had twelve year olds scurrying up chimneys. It is only one class that laments the passing of Cutty Sark, the landed gentry who benefited from her plunder and who would still do today.....if we let them! Sincerely, Steven Calrow

This dissatisfaction does not include only the doctors. Two of my daughters are nurses of long standing, since leaving school, in the NHS.
One having a high job in a Primary Care Trust, and the other a Nurse Consultant.
Both are upset with their conditions of employment, the constant threat of having to re-apply for their owen jobs. The continual reorganisations that are ever present, and more importantly the feeling that the NHS is being privatised by the back door, being engendered by the almost continuous reorganisations.
They are both well paid,very well qualified and sincerely attached to the ethos of the NHS.
But they are not happy with the present set up, all the reorganisations, changes, staff moves, make the job that they do even more difficult, especially when they think that the NHS is being unravelled and privatised. They realise that advances in treatment must mean increased costs and staff, but are not convinced that the managers have sufficient knowledge to manage all the changes.

Psychiatrists want to be the presidents of the empires in their minds...an empire where everyone is sick in fear and neglected and abused as unworthy..and empire where their every criminality and dishonesty every perversity lie and deceit can win...and every contestment and challenge to it every anger that the world has not been put to rights gives them the excuse to make it worse for you...

...they have a peculiar xenephobia of idle minded emergency against anyone who represents the confrontations of the knowledge of the world and freedom from slavery to any inferior or punitive kind of people...

....they have a quixotic need for servants that do not exist...

...a bizarre inclusivity of everything and everyone they hate and want to pick a fight with...

... a militant tyranny of syllogist prejudice ...

...a zionistic science without situation or time boundedness only eternal everlasting theory...

... of predilective sectarian universalist enemism of economic self determinist conviction

...they use deliberate tactics of deterioration

...they take ethnic pride in sexist hatred

...a belief that betterment can only come through the failure of others...

...a mean-tale-ity that no-one can be better than they are

....a denial of their every wrongdoing to be free from any guilt

...a daily diatribe of defence systematic perjury and perversion

... a love of the supremacies of disabling others

.. they dispise the rights reputations popularity and health of others

...and fear the condemnations and living proof of working class knowledge and objections

..they pervert and corrupt every power of the law...and turn every sense that wrong doing must be stopped into an excuse for further treatment

... they charge people with the crime of being healthy..with the crime of not being the way they like..with the crime of not admiring or respecting them..with the crime of being better or smarter than they are...with the crime of being decisive eloquent or right..with the crime of them being in the wrong and you discovering it...

....they want to make everything inevitable and every violence inescapable until the despair and defeat of humanity by Zionist scientific methods has been achieved...

...every death is a triumph...every disablement is a success...every struggle a hilarity...every failing a mockability...

..The greater and healthier the young man or woman the more vehement and venomistic they fight to defeat them

..they hate the opportunities aspirations inspirations leadership cares fanship loves hopes and freedoms of man and have drugs to turn off every one of those humanities for the sake of immoral subservience to the blairite principles of deservence reigning the cliques of ethical virtue in the Negligent Hatred Service that blair taxed us all for......

..they cannot tolerate any sporting sense of overachieving destiny duty and survivalist advantage taking...

...every strength they want turned to weakness ...every power they want turned into fear...every courage they want punished into failure...every confidence they want turned into dispicability...every romanticism they want turned into deflation...every word of self representation they want turned into nihilist futility of zero memory... every ability they want turned into a tragic comedy...and every memory of the pleasures of life they want turned into pain... every arrogance they want turned into deference...every education they want taken away... every expression they want muted..and every loyalty they want put at risk... every sense of family they want turned to social justice..and every love of the world they want turned into the omnipresence enforcement of psychiatric beliefs...every objectivity they want turned into an obedience..every time you were proud of your name they wanted it turned off into behaviour... every self control they want turned into rage...and every sense of belonging they want turned into denial... every worth every value every achievement every prospect of a future they want turned into the immorality of the lies they believe in...and every status and worthiness of the rewardability of your work...they want turned into incapacity and perpetual unemployability...

The want revenge for every act to stop their victimisation...they have dozens of victims to their names...

Every drug is supported by fraud and defended by perjury... and who know what they will abuse and assault people with whilst they write the lies of who deserves it....

The only way to progress quickly is to masturbate using the care empathy system of a nurse until she recognises her own selfish pleasures and can be persuaded of your healthiness...by hers

James Bond.. Bravo 2 Zero... Kafkas the Trial...each somewhat prepare you...but in truth they want to hear how good they are at their jobs ...and they can only be intimidated when they know they are crap at them!

Sick ire tricksters...they are employed by the government to get unwanted people to go to hell and deter the others... instead they try to destroy the ones who most wanted to live to contribute who were the most considerate of others..and misrepresent them for ever with new identities that earn them money in their economies of "greed is good" ethnic hatred and venomous pride...every take down is a spare job for their mates their creed their kind... every rationality is a reduction of their empire they cannot tolerate...

We believe Madeleine was taken by the company Albufeira named after the Algarve town... in some psychiatric hospitals they give orphaned babies to paedophilic psychotic criminal psychaitrists who have called themselves paedeatricians so they can abuse them to see what happens and experiment on them to make them feel unwanted... the same kind of sicko abuse might have happened to her...turning Madeleine into medeline ...snatched to order by psychiatrists who hated their lovely family and knowledge of life!!!

Everything was goodness to blair..every crime was a fight for freedom a political correction...and to him every psychiatrist is a good person dealing with the distress of people who pretend to be lawful whilst murderously going to war...

A departed hero dead now advised..."Go to war... we will rewrite history... frame them and section their brains with the certificates off their walls... spinach the world and popeye their eyes out with your thumbs to prove they could not see it coming... pick up your pens and fight at them until you are dependent on them no more..love the lovable and kill everyone else of them...fight as if every punch and stomp is every year you would every have lived in one moment...and live forever knowing you have saved lives with your war!!!" Me...I wanted to kill too many such was their abuse of vulnerable women.....every single one of them throughout history and into the future... so every effort of politics will be made until the world has exposed them and their funding their beliefs their false science and their defendants are no more...so that every man and woman will be free to look to their own future free to walk with all the morality of their proudness in every town and country throughout the world we love!!! Amen Amen...inspired by the love of Martin Luther King for the freedom of you all and for those who would have written had it not been for the NHS drugs in their brains!!!

Please can you introduce an option on Newsnight in Scotland to keep watching the last item, perhaps by pressing the magic red button?

The last item sounds really interesting but I will not be able to watch it because Newsnight Scotland will be wittering on about the Holyrood some more instead...

Nice to see the left wing PC crowd out in force on this blog!.

Just to correct a couple of their false claims, yes the British public do hold the Cutty Sark in high regard, 15 million visitors say so.

I is not the landed class who mourn the damage done to the Cutty Sark, no it is everyone with even a small sense of pride in this country, I for one am not from the landed class, yet I found the pictures of this great ship in flames very sad.

It riles me that these unelected arbiters of what we can and cannot be proud of seem to dominate these kind of blogs, SKY NEWS also has a blog which is overwhelmingly full of comments horrified at the damage done to this ship and also proud of our heritage.

I would guess that most people who view SKY are not from the so called landed class!.

So I say one thing to you PC extremists, you are not representive of the British public, you only represent about 1% of the public, so go back to your elitist newspapers and let the rest of us get on with our lifes without your interference.

BCD TLC writing For Britain...and for the freedom to be entertainingly healthy wealthy and empowered in Britain...

The Negligence Hatred Service??? an end to sacrifice... an end to ethnic prejudice... an end to experimentalism...

We are not there for them ...we should not pay for them...they have tried to make us all servants to them through the NHS with their taxation...every Briton should have their own health account which we can top up, get subsidy for, and borrow against...

Betterment is not the objective ...accelerated health recovery is our objective...

We fund the health service because we want to care for others and improve health care fast...that is our motive..not because some want to cleanse society of the cr#p in their own brains brilliant with prejudice and playing the selfish gene without the appreciation of all their other genes and ours...

We need to harness the practical health and safety knowledge of our own animalities ergonomics biocare systematics bioviews experience sense tenses and athleticisms..and the different options of recovery technique...

Most would gladly contribute their knowledge to a share care community online...and via church or work groups...

Every spare doctor must be welcomed into companies and community places for them to build a network of contacts and clients...we must end the dependency on state funding and offer tax rebates to those who support them...and we must aim for a society free from the economics of sickness...

Everybody must be able to get a Health Recovery Plan...and be able to fill a full Liabilities and Incapacities Report...with tactical preparation experience....and strategic plans to maintain forward thinking for the health work and improvements they have to make ....they need support with arguments experience and social advice for those who need to know..estimates of recovery progress and estimates of the physical risks of participation, etc...

There must be DVDs for every care and concern...and further use of websites and phone lines ...both for knowledge to download and complaints and improvements to feedback...

The culture of the NHS must change... from one of sedation and efficiency..to one of Customisation Care and Companionability... every patient must be able to review methods and prepare for all eventualities..they must be able to recover at their own pace and in the ways suitable to their biosystems...

Invalid years per town must be measured... and every one who seems to enforce obedience for victimisation must be witch hunted our of our hospitals....

We want a sporting chance society..not a mental one.... every taxpayer will be courteously supported in their investigations and responded too as people who have paid for their own futures...

And we want the certainties of the right choices...staff proud of their ability to understand adapt and care.... clean wards and nurses fulfilled with duty and forward thinking of the consequences and not submission to vain needs for deference...

Not an inward looking income generating privatised self service greed is good economy but caring companies in which every local is a political share holder...dedicated to outcomes ...to the practical support of every customer...

The practicality of the NHS must be restored... not clinical judgment or ethical judgment ...but support of the practical judgements... the attitudes to risk of the customer must be supported....

A department of ethical training must be formed to remove those who ethics lead them into hostilities for the purpose of medical damage...

We will have a safe world of practical health and safety advice where all staff can be trusted once more...where any man woman or child of any age background and prosperity can know that they can be returned from victim of their condition back to the healthy vigorous humanity we love to see succeed...

Pensions life assurances and health insurances must be combined into a sporting chance package to reward the healthy and plan for longevities...

All drugs must be relicenced... everybody has the motive to improve their lives...if the route of drugs enhancement is chosen it must be with preparation and experience of suitable knowledge...

Above all the public must be made aware of the risk of medical perversions...the liberal movement must be thoroughly investigated to expose all vendettas and drugs abuses against us...and those guilty of misleading the public into economic discrimination by drugs impairment must be removed from the system and dispossessed of their criminal winnings...

The public know what they want of the health service...and many of those working for the service would love to work for us the public instead of them the employers...

Cash bonuses and security must be provided to all those who expose and incriminate the medical economic perverts across the planet...

BCD TLC writing For Britain...and for the freedom to be entertainingly healthy wealthy and empowered in Britain...

...

THE CLIPPER NEVER WENT TO CHINA...TEA CAME FROM BORDEAUX...DID ANNOYING -TY DEBATES ...SPARK IT SATELLITE FLAMBÉ OF TRADITIONALITY...

In the case of the fire of the Cutty Sark...Humility attacked Beauty...Modernity attacked Traditionality...Liberality attacked Humanity...and Presidentiality attacked Companionability...and Criminality attacked Tradability...so many hundreds of ships lost already to history....

There is no way the ship could have burnt like that without sustained focus of burning attention from overhead laser equipment held in roving low level satellites ...

New money iT hotheads get p!ssed off and want revenge..their equipment roves above our towns ...

Around the time after 911 several people had their heads fried and their car batteries burnt out by their equipment...and around Bournemouth tests have lit cliff gorse... annoyed at what's the gorse of that jokes...a St Mark's church was also burnt by satellite as an anger against Marxism...

There was much debate about branded tea..."City" "Dignity" and ever other form of debatable confidentiality...had been considered....enough to annoy any security surveillance programmer into e-raizure...

BCD...from above a Chinese in Bournemouth...

City
Civility
Liberty
Royalty
Fraternity
Confidentiality
Security
Criminality
Sorority
Eternity
Individuality
Equity
Prosperity
Productivity
Quality
Veracity
Authority
Legality
Morality
Equality
Vulgarity
Carnality
Chastity
Bellicosity
Servility
Vanity
Mortality
Immortality
Universality
Sanity
Spirituality
Polity
idealities
...

In support of Mr Lansley's comments, I can give evidence of patients dying because doctors were beign told to focus on 4 hour targets rather than treating the most ill patients in the A&E

Interesting discussion on the NHS tonight.Targets are the biggest problem,and these distort treatment plans,often to the detriment of the patients.
This level of dissatifaction by health service workers will only increase over the next few years as the D of Healths clumsy efforts to reform dental services result in it being increasingly difficult for patients to find an NHS dentist.

Most NHS employees won't notice the wage increase because house prices went up so much they are relatively worse off.

Doctors are unhappy because they are being turned into technicians with limited skills. They have to work to targets which distort clinical priorities. NICE guidelines are rationing presciping according to political rather than clinical agendas.

World class medical training is being destroyed by the MMC program which is drastically shortening training and leaving many doctors with dead end career paths.

Medical Morale:

When one panelist accused Doctors of not acting in the best interest of patients by moving patients from A&E to wards to manipulate the figures I was amazed to hear that he thought that it was the Doctors that were to blame. It is a well established fact that given the choice between manipulating figures to meet targets or losing your job most people will manipulate figures.

This principle was established half a century ago by W Edwards Deming and has been well documented since. I find it remarkable that the government is so naive about such obvious and well known management psychology. The service will only begin to improve when the measurement and means of improvement is handed over to the people who do the work.

As a final year medical student at Nottingham Medical School I see everyday the disenchantment and confusion every clinician in the NHS seems to have. In your programme the focus seemed to be on waiting lists and quite how wonderful they are. What the programme seemed to fail to stress is that there will be a dangerous lack of experienced consultants in the NHS in 20 years. This is through no fault of the doctors but rather due to insane targets for the amount of hours we can work. This is hugley depressing as I feel that I will be worse at my job than my seniors now, through no fault of my own but rather through the dangerously small number of hours I have been allowed to work. This is driving me and many of my contemparies to consider moving abroad (in my case to the US) where we will recieve a higher level of education and much more experience with no EU working time directive to have to adhere to. This dumbing down of the medical establishment is not only depressing for doctors but potentially dangerous for patients.

Non of your contributors really touched the point. Not the ineffective mr johnson, nor my old friend Jo Revill. The NHS is not about patients patients patients but about votes votes votes! Ministers use the senior NHS managers to help them achieve their targets to make them look good. Junior managers are employed to serve senior managers, and we doctors, and our colleagues the nurses and technicians etc are merely the tools to do the work. Managers' promotion depends upon them meeting their masters' orders - and if they fail, they are moved on to another post to cause more havoc before repeating the scene again. Who picks up the pieces? The medical staff. We work in a punishment based bureacracy where there are no rewards, merely fines and sanctions for failing to meet targets that are not patient based.

Not enough doctors? easy to solve. Just shorten the training period and redefine 'specialist' of 'consultant'. Who cares if the new breed are inadequately prepared to take responsibility of patients' lives? It makes the politicians look good - and the professionalism of the NHS staff and the overall wellbeing of people can go to hell in a handcart

Dr Duncan Dymond MD FRCP

I am shocked that the junior doctors training fiasco has been dealt with in this way. A junior doctor myself, I have made an oath towards much more than just patient care. I like many, have sacrificed a lot so far both in training and private life because medicine is in fact, a way of life.

I am appalled to see that people such as your Observer correspondent, sees doctors as a "gang" and nurses as "victims of society". This undermines and humiliates both!

There are mammoth tasks and sacrifices undertaken on a daily basis, working at 150% daily with no breaks or selfishness on behalf of doctors, who have been highly trained in more than just in hospital patient care. A lot of us have degrees and experience in management and nevertheless in our daily work, do indeed manage both resources and people. These are not turf wars, this is not about doctors "submitting to managers and having power taken away". These are the people at the forefront of patient care. IN the corporate world, this is common sense.

Both nursing staff and medical staff have been united in complaining about the state of affairs.I am shocked that people who do not realise what actually working in the NHS is like, can go on national television and talk about doctors being "stroppy" because things are not going their way. A lot of what we do is indeed absurd in terms of shifts with no breaks, vast extra hours of work without pay etc whereas for example, nursing staff have protected breaks and more defined roles. It is a different profession and cannot be compared to nursing.

To add insult to injury, we are treated as "stroppy union members" when raising concerns over training which essentially is a knock on patient care! Any inpatient will tell you so.

This is about your care, our care and that of those you love. So instead of reacting against a profession that is being constantly criticised despite such sacrifice, maybe we should listen at the concerns for once. When was the last time you heard something positive about the profession anyway? Surely we must be doing something right. All we are asking is a fair chance at doing what we've been trained so far to do.

Medical Morale:
Sirs,
I find it incredible the stance that the BMA head is taking. Comments about being a cog in the wheel simply means to me that doctors are beginning to realise that virtually every service in the world these days employs and uses people as commodities. I do not remember our stalwart, professionally motivated consultants sticking up for the poor nurses during all those years of poor pay and erosion of position. These days I am getting more and more skeptical about the real motivations of our lofty "professions" in this country. Accountants, laywers, doctors, scientists etc. all seem to believe that they deserve a privileged position in society even to the extent of many professions reserving the right to self regulate. Don't get me wrong on this issue. I am not saying that the politicians are managing the health service very well, but it would seem that they are at least moving in the right direction. Do you hear any of the shorter waiting list patients fighting for better pay and more time on the golf course for the poor put upon consultants?
All the rest of us, less than godlike, working stiffs have to meet imposed targets, worry about holding onto our job, work long hours and put up with poor work/life balances. So come on doc ! Wake up and smell the coffee - if you know better than all the rest of us why don't you take a proactive role in dropping the current shocking MRSA rate, support your own support staff better and spend less time trying to get the NHS/Private Surgery balance right for your undoubtedly already healthy bank book ! There are lots of sick people out here who just need competent treatment not a bunch of pauvre, pauvre moi coming from some of the best paid service staff in the country. (I must have had too much sugar tonight).

Post # 7

This guy sounds like the average stock market parasite who would privatise the NHS at the earliest opportunity. I expect that he can easily afford the £500 per month people are expected to pay in the US for health cover. Companies can simply not afford to fund health care costs for their workers, the likes of Ford and GM are going broke on the strength of it.

The NHS is good value for money even now, but it is patently obvious that if a company can do it and turn a profit, the NHS if properly managed can do it cheaper. Perhaps the NHS should stop buying over expensive drugs which fail to cure people over the longer term, or at least make them means tested. Then the stock market parasites can get what they really want which is as always more insurance money circulating to parasite from.

Leave the NHS alone as it probably the only organisation left which unites the nation, if we get rid of it what was the point of theoretically winning WW2.

Those who think that doctors are somehow undeservedly earning higher wages and working fewer hours need their eyes opened.

As a junior doctor (now as a local graduate unable to get a job)I rarely ever left work on time. Why? Professional responsibility.

Years ago there were no student fees and students received grants. Now a qualified doctor leaves university in around 40,000 of debt. The average wage for a newly qualified doctor is around 24-28,000 pre tax. Try getting a viable mortgage on that wage in London.

I guess doctors will never win in this because we're all seen as a different species, somehow superior, and often mistakenly thought to come from wealthy backgrounds.

The demands of the job are greater than ever. Possibilities are endless with medical advances, expectations limitless, but resources and the system itself are limited.

This is on a background of crippling bureaucracy, targets and negative attitudes toward the profession thanks to Shipman et al.

Thousands of doctors will be jobless in August. Hard working professionals
who were keeping the NHS afloat will be leaving.

So it does matter if doctors are happy because if we aren't heard people will die unnecessarily. Watch this space.

I know a family for a very longtime and they need help with their daughter of 33 years suffering from mental health for last 7 years. She is very well educated in this country, very very good in string instrument and very well mannered and beautiful. Her friend died in train accident, her marriage broke down, she lost her father within these 7 years. I think she needs help to come out her mental suffering and not mental medication. I am looking for advice to guide them. Please help

Long long ago in a galaxy far far away there lived people with big hair called astronomers. All night long they searched the skies through telescopes to see if they could find any sign of life. They didn't have many friends.

Stonehenge is an astronomical clock. Why don't we refurbish that?

"NIGHTLY ATTACK ON CUTTY SARK..WHOSE TEA WAS IT? THE ADMIRALTY'S...HARDLY THE END OF THE WORLD? AS FEMINIST AIR CREW WIVES LOSE A MOVIE STAR'S FORTUNE TO THE NAVY IN THE TEA MARKETS"

If only we knew the whole story...a book or a website maybe....

Missed opportunities for the Independent and others... premium rate phone lines training courses cds dvds websites advertising ...all the money that could have been made...out of their publication around the cutty sark storey so far...but could they be bothered in time??

Art courses and international gallery tours in the artwork of ship and yacht views ..including the blueprints training manuals and customer design...

The history of the tea trade lecture course or phone in book or dvd

Who dunnit courses

Boat building courses..restoration courses

Visit london advertising...

Their Independent...? you would think the money would move to other people's Independent....maybe the Oi! Our Independent...they wouldn't want to stop the news getting around would they...

A Benedict in Bournemouth

I'm sorry for Cutty Sark.
She was a beauty.
I used to have a model when I was a boy.

When the World Trade Center towers were attacked, many Palestinians cheered at the destruction and death experienced in America. Now they are caught in a fight between an Arab government and the very kinds of terrorists they have chosen as their heroes time and again when other people were their victims. What should the world in general and Americans in particular have any sympathy for their plight now?

on comment 17:

Ignorance is truly bliss.The issues facing medicine are much more than those you hear in the media. More than MRSA and superbugs.

Nobody 's saying that doctors are superior. Nobody's suggesting special treatment. In fact we are awake, and have smelt the coffee as you suggest. We are telling you about it. If people chose to listen, that is another story.

As for the comparison with other professions, the day that air traffic controllers do the same shift patterns as doctors under similar conditions, will be the day people begin to understand! And maybe then people will wake up to the fact that doctors are not leeches as we are so often described!